This is a transcript from our podcast episode with Joan Tollifson about meditation and Just this.

Axel Wennhall
Hi and welcome to the podcast “Meditera Mera”, which in direct translation means “meditate more”, with me Axel Wennhall, who asks the questions, and sound producer Gustav Nord. This is a podcast made by the Swedish meditation app Mindfully. I am currently at home in Stockholm, Sweden, and I am excited to call our next guest, Joan Tollifson. Before we begin, we always strive to have the best sound quality as possible. Speaking to people all over the world do complicate that, and in our conversation with Joan, she had some issues with her microphone, as you might hear straight away. But, hang in there, it’s actually not too bad, and Joan is a real gem that you don’t want to miss. Joan Tollifson is a writer and a lifelong explorer of what is. Her varied backgrounds include Buddhism, Advaita, non-traditional meditative inquiry, radical non-duality, and many other fields. Joan has been with many different teachers, and was especially close with Tony Packer, a former Zen teacher, who left that tradition behind to work in a simpler and more open way. But Joan does not identify with or represent any particular tradition or way of working. Joan has herself held public and private meetings, as well as occasional workshops and retreats since 1996. Joan is also the author of several books, such as Bare Bones Meditation, Waking Up from the Story of My Life, and Nothing to Grasp. In our conversation, we will explore the simplicity of what is. What is the nature of reality? How can we find a healthy relationship to a spiritual teacher? Can this really be it? And what advice have Joan for all of us who wants to live an awake and compassionate life? First of all, thank you for joining the podcast.

Joan Tollifson
Well, thank you for having me.

Axel Wennhall
I heard you first at Sam Harris at the Waking Up. I thought it was a beautiful conversation. And since then, I’ve been reading a lot of your outpourings on your website, and they are just brilliant. I’m so happy I found you and your teachings or your text about the here now, as you say, or the being human, really. Being human, it’s been beautiful. But for all of those who haven’t listened to you, who doesn’t know anything about you, could you perhaps introduce yourself? And your background and where you were in life when you discovered meditation and spirituality?

Joan Tollifson
Okay. Well, although I was raised by atheist agnostics, I was attracted to religion and spirituality from childhood. And I read books on religion and stuff in college in the 60s. I took a course on Vedanta and Zen, read Alan Watts, took a lot of psychedelics, things like that. And that’s where I first learned to meditate. But I wasn’t really doing it very much. But I read the Upanishads and Alan Watts and all sorts of stuff like that. And then I kind of got into alcohol and drugs for a number of years in a pretty serious and nearly fatal way. And then I got when I sobered up, I got into politics. The women’s movement, the lesbian gay movement, the anti-imperialist left, the Central America Solidarity Movement. I got into a lot of political work. And then when I left that kind of activism, I started sitting at the Zen Center in San Francisco and then lived at the Berkeley Zen Center for a while. And both Joko Beck, Charlotte Joko Beck and Tony Packer were coming to California where I lived at the time for retreats every year separately, I mean. And I ended up sitting with both of them. And Tony became my main teacher and she was a had been a Zen teacher would have been Philip Kaplow’s successor at the Rochester Zen Center, but she. She left the whole Zen tradition, hierarchy, dogma, etc. To work in a more open way with. She kept the silent sittings, but the sittings were optional and you could sit in chairs and and. There wasn’t any ritual and she did. She approached everything in a very open questioning way, inviting direct exploration and inquiry. So she didn’t. It wasn’t philosophical, kind of. It was. It was direct. And she was, I consider her my main teacher, although I’ve been with a whole bunch of other teachers, both Zen teachers, one including like Steve Hagan and John Tarrant and Maureen Stewart and a bunch of satsang teachers like Gangaji and I’ve, you know, been to things with Adi Ashanti and Isaac Shapiro and, you know, a whole host of people and over the years and and and went on a retreat with Tony Parsons many years ago. And, you know, had a connection with Sailor Bob and and, you know, some of those people early on. And so I I have a kind of. Very diverse, wide spectrum of of influences and that all sort of. Find their way into my expression in one way or another.

Axel Wennhall
The work that comes to my mind, the Swedish word smörgåsbord. Smörgåsbord, yes. So with all those teachers, because that was a handful of different teachers, what would you say?

Joan Tollifson
And I am 70, I am 74 years old now, so this was over a long period of time, not all in one week or something.

Axel Wennhall
So for me personally, listening to different teachers, of course you can bring different flavors from different ones, but what I’m also been interested and I wonder if this is for you as well or has been for you when you’ve been with many teachers is to try to find the commonality between the teachers. What is the kind of essence of the teachings and despite being coming from different traditions or different cultures or different teaching techniques, whatever it might be, what are the what’s the common commonality they are speaking about?

Joan Tollifson
That’s a great question. Well, I think they’re all in some way involved in what I would call nonduality, meaning that a kind of recognition that there is no actual separation and also a recognition of the sort of nonsubstantial nature of this whole appearance. That it doesn’t have the solid objective inherent reality that we sort of think it does. So that seems to me like maybe the thing they most have in common, and they express that in very different ways. I mean, Advaita talks about the one self, Buddhism talks about emptiness and interdependence and impermanence. So they language it in different ways, they conceptualize it in different ways, but it’s. It all has something to do with that non-separation and non-substantiality and also with some recognition that this little me that we feel is kind of in here. Directing the show, authoring my words, making my choices and so on, that we can’t really find that. It doesn’t really seem to be there when we look for it. It’s just a kind of mirage and that everything is happening in some way by itself. So that they all seem to have some version of that in common, I would say.

Axel Wennhall
One thing that I’ve heard you speak about before and that I’ve seen in myself and I’ve been pondering upon why it is so, it’s the romanization of teachers, the projections we can have in different teachers. And I have one good friend, or you could say it’s my mentor. He went to Eckhart Tolle lecture. I think it was in Norway, perhaps. And before the lecture, people were queuing up. And when the gate opened, they were running to get a seat in the front. And it kind of made me think like, I mean, that can’t be what Eckhart Tolle is teaching. That you have to be close by to get his transmission or whatever. But at the same time with different teachings is that a lot of us who had awakenings is that that is perhaps the most important and useful or whatever you want to call it, insight in the life, in your life. I mean, it can be so profound. And of course, when you have someone helping you or directing you or guiding you to that insight, that creates a special bond as well. But what’s your view on a healthy relationship with a teacher?

Joan Tollifson
Yeah, well, I was really lucky because all of my earliest teachers, which would be Mel Weitzman at the Berkeley Zen Center and then Charlotte Jokoback and Tony Packer, were all very, very, very careful not to become authority figures or kind of idolized gurus or anything like that. Especially Tony was. I mean, all three of them were very down to earth. They were very honest about themselves. They were very ordinary people. They didn’t act like special people. There was never that kind of scene, which I have. I mean, I remember that from Gangaji Satsang. You know, everybody, when the doors opened, you know, pushing each other and racing for the front seats and everything. But I was really lucky that those were sort of the first three teachers that I was with. And that were probably, you know, and then some so many of the others that I’ve been with, like Steve Hagen and Annam Tuberton, and, you know, have also been very not guru-ish in any way. Although, you know, I have to say, I mean, I met Mooji in person once. I really liked him. You know, he certainly teaches in that kind of guru way. And I had a wonderful connection with Gangaji, who kind of teaches in that way, I think less so over time, but certainly when I was with her, she did. I mean, I think we’re moving more and more towards approaching all this without those kinds of guru figures and that whole scene that has been so much, has been so traditional in the past, especially, and I think in Hinduism and Advaita Vedanta, but also in Buddhism in many ways, you know, where the, I think we’re moving towards more of a more down to earth approach where I think it’s really important that people understand that nobody is in some totally perfect state where they never have any delusions anymore. And they, you know, they’re just continuously in this expanded place or something. So I think it’s really important that teachers are honest about what they’re going through. And I see that more and more, like I try to do that. And I see more and more teachers, you know, acknowledging that they go through depression sometimes or that they, they had, you know, talking openly about their humanity, so to speak. And of course, the radical non-dual teachers, you know, like Tony Parsons and my friend Daryl Bailey and people like that are, you know, from that perspective, it’s all included. I mean, the delusion, the, the moments of contraction, all of that is just part of this whole happening, which is also there in all these traditional teachings as well, ultimately. But to me, this isn’t about erasing our human beingness or getting to some place where we have completely left our human beingness behind and we are at some transcendent, you know, like all we are is, I don’t know what, empty space or something. I mean, yeah, at any moment, I mean, there is empty space, you could say, but it’s like, you know, that’s not where, where we’re at at every moment in the sense that, you know, when you’re feeling angry or something, at that moment, you know, there has been a sort of contracting down into the sense of being little me, who is threatened and upset and fearful and angry or whatever it is. And, and I don’t think there’s anybody who never has those kinds of experiences anymore.

Axel Wennhall
No, I think it’s very refreshing hearing from you. And as I said in the beginning, when I read your teachings, it’s, it’s one of the most clear and I don’t, I don’t know if the word best is the right word, but it’s your teachings is very clear and it’s literally one of the best I’ve read. And it’s very on point, it’s very down to earth. And I think it’s very refreshing also to hear from you who’s been in the game for so long about this. And because it’s so easy to project, I think most of us in the spiritual game has, have had projections on different teachers. And I mean, if you can charge extra for sitting next, closer to one, it’s easy to have those projection as well, right? But I also, I also believe that in terms of my own teaching and also with listening to other teachers, when one can open up and be honest about one’s humanity and the mistakes and the, and just the human condition of being human with all, with all the, I mean, it’s not always that pretty, right? And it can be pretty, it can be pretty messy. And, and, and seeing that and, and being with that and sharing that for me is, I mean, that’s healing for me, I would say, to be able to explore and listen and share that with others, because it kind of puts me in a, in a place where I can, yeah, just feel companionship and friendship with people and, and, and share this human experience.

Joan Tollifson
Yeah, it’s so, it’s so relieving, like not to have to be somebody, not to have to, you know, pretend, like it’s so relieving. Um, every time I’ve sort of revealed another neurotic bit about me or something, um, it’s been so relieving in a way, you know, and, and I, you know, I get the feedback a lot that it’s relieving and helpful to other people, because so many teachers really do sort of cultivate this image, uh, and say things, you know, like they never get angry anymore, or they never have any sense of being a separate self anymore, or, um, their little me has fallen away completely forever, however they put it, you know, but, um, and then everybody else- and I went through this for a long time myself- everybody else feels like, well, I guess I’m not there yet, and and it perpetuates that endless search for this imaginary there that we’re trying to get to, um, instead of recognizing that this is it, we’re here, this is it.

Axel Wennhall
How was that for you? Because I, I’ve read about your own awakening a little bit and that, um, you had this process of trying to find something.

Joan Tollifson
Yeah, and it can still come up. To be honest, I mean, I still have moments where, you know, I’m feeling anxious or uneasy or unsettled or something, and all of a sudden, you know, I have these thoughts. What am I doing? And I, you know, maybe rush to the bookshelves and let’s look at I am that again or something, you know, and um, it can even still happen. What you know, it did seem that there was for a while I was really, really obsessed with trying to get to some sort of final, um, awakening that these other people seem to be describing, that that didn’t fit what my experience was, and that kind of did fall away as I began to see more and more clearly that, wait a minute, this is all about me, this is all about me getting to some better place for me, where you know it’s such an irony. I mean, it’s like I me wants to get to this place where there won’t be any me anymore, so I can finally be a truly enlightened and successful me and I can finally relax and just be myself, so to speak. It’s really quite funny. So, yeah, there was a big seeing through that, not not big in some grandiose sense and not in one big moment or anything, but just a gradual kind of seeing through that. But but even now, you know, there can still be moments of of of feeling uncertainty or doubt or and and kind of reaching for for something in a way that feels kind of addictive and and uh, and there may be people for whom that never happens anymore, I don’t know, but I don’t care if there are people for whom that never happens anymore. I can only be with what’s going on here. And even to announce that this never happens for me anymore seems incredibly delusional because because, how do you know, it’s never going to come up again and and you’re sort of announcing that me is beyond me. Um, look at me, this doesn’t happen to me anymore. You know, it’s just, it’s kind of. Um, and and really honestly, the best, clearest teachers that I’ve been with all acknowledge, you know, like I, I, I was talking to Annam Tubton once and you know, he to me was just, is, is just one of the clearest, most. amazing beings on the planet. And, you know, I really had had him and still have him, I suppose, up on, you know, quite a pedestal, because he really just is this radiant, clear being. And I, I said, you know, I said to him, well, you know, I said, there’s, there’s a lot of, you know, awakening and insight and this is all clear, but at the same time, I’m, I’m really, uh, deluded a lot of the time. I’m, I, and he said, I’m into, I said, I’m in delusion a lot of the time. And he said, oh, me too, isn’t it wonderful? And, you know, and Tony Packer, when people would sort of idealize her, she would say, where do you think I get the material for my talks? You know, where she was to be talking about the kinds of things that come up for human beings and, you know, it’s like from observing herself and, um, and Joko would say things like, no matter what I say, 10 minutes from now, we’re all going to be out there seeking something, you know, and um, so the those teachers were, we’re all just really honest about that. This is, this is how the human mind works and, yes, there’s a, there’s, there’s a kind of waking up, seeing through the ways that it creates suffering and confusion, and kind of waking up from the hypnotic trance, you know, and and waking up to this, you know, wonderfully, um, okay, bigger picture, so to speak, all inclusive picture, but it’s just an ongoing, it’s an ongoing process and it isn’t really personal, which is one of the, one of the revelations that I consider part of so-called Awakening, you know, is that none of it is really personal. It’s not about Joan, it’s not about the, the apparent mistakes, the apparent breakthroughs. It’s all a happening of this whole. It’s not, it’s not about a little me who isn’t even really in there.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, no, I, I can relate to you, what you just said, and, um, my wife is pretty good at bringing me back to reality. So when we’re in an argument, she used to say, they should see you now, the meditation teacher. And it’s, it’s good because it’s, um, it’s a good reflection of, um, yeah, of my own, uh, delusion and, uh, my own, uh, yeah, my own temper, I would say sometimes. But, but I think one of the things, a progress, if you want to call it progress, it’s, is when, at least for myself, is that when I see it now, first of all, I’m not deluded as much as I’ve been before, and when I see it, I can also have a more of a compassionate view when I see it.

Joan Tollifson
Yeah, that feels really important, and that definitely is one of the things that has shifted here, that I don’t feel upset in the way I used to over, over all these apparent flaws, like I don’t go into this place of, oh, my God, I lost my temper on Facebook, um, I’ve ruined, you know what a I’m a spiritual fraud, you know, you know, it’s just, it’s just all part of this happening. And so, yeah, there’s a lot more compassion for myself and for everyone else being, being as weird as we all are sometimes, and, uh, and that doesn’t mean that, you know, sometimes I don’t feel like somebody else should be doing something different and feel angry at them or something, because that can happen. Yeah, they always say, you know, if you think you’re enlightened, you know, go home and visit your parents, or you know, or yeah, like Joko, Joko used to say, the best thing for your spiritual practice, besides these Zen sashims, the best thing for your spiritual practices is either a job in a busy office or an intimate relationship. And, and she would say in the intimate relationship, not because it will make you happy, because she said it won’t, but because, um, it will push all your buttons, um, as will the busy office. And, um, and that’s what she did. She had a job in a busy office and raised five children as a single mother or something. I think it was five, I’m not sure, I can’t remember, but it was several children anyway as a single mother. And, and she felt like that was the, that was the best thing for spiritual practice, you know, because then you find out where you’re still caught, you find out where the edges are, you find out what pushes your buttons and all that sort of thing.

Axel Wennhall
And, um, yeah, I, I can totally agree. And I, I was happy that you threw in the kids there, because that’s definitely in the mix as well, I have to say. So, but what is spirituality for you? How do you define it?

Joan Tollifson
Well, you know, I’m not really fond of the word, but I haven’t really found another one, you know, because, like, people want to know what, what do you write your books about, or what do you, what, you know, and like, it’s not biology, it’s not mathematics, it’s not physics, it’s not engineering, it’s not, you know, I have to have some kind of word. And there’s no word that I’ve ever found that really completely satisfies me. So I’ve kind of come up with non-duality or non-dual spirituality or spirituality, but spirituality can suggest so many things, you know, and I’m not into angels and, and, you know, some of the things that that word can conjure up. And in my view, everything is spiritual. I mean, you know, my last book, Death, the End of Self Improvement, part of what I wrote about was, was having an anal cancer. And now I have this ostomy. And, you know, and I wrote about the messiness of that and all the different things that I went through in the course of all this and, and seeing all of it is spiritual, you know, it’s like there’s an old Zen koan or saying or something where someone asks the master, what is Buddha? And the Zen master says, toilet paper, basically, I mean, he says dried shit stick, but in our language, that would be used toilet paper, you know, and so to me, everything is spiritual. I mean, the freeway is spiritual, the, you know, urban development is spiritual, the toilet paper is spiritual, and every aspect of our lives is spiritual. And really, things like meditation, as I see it, I mean, yes, there, it’s a different experience to sit down in silence doing nothing than it is to be in the office, for example, it’s a different experience. But really, eventually, you see that there’s no real boundary between meditation and the rest of your life. So it’s like, meditation is a particular kind of setting or experience where everything’s very simplified and quieted down. And that’s good, that’s helpful, or enjoyable, or whatever it is, but, but ultimately, it’s, it’s the same as when you’re in the office. I mean, and when you’re in the office, it’s just again, just being here with what’s showing up, being in the office, being in the office, and then being in the office, Being here with experiencing as it is, and just seeing all the ways that you get upset, all the ways that you feel flattered or triggered or whatever you feel, and just being the whole thing. So to me, everything is spiritual.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, yeah, I think I would define it in very similar ways. Perhaps I would see it as this aliveness that we can only experience. And perhaps for me also, spirituality in its core essence for me when I speak about it, it’s also the, the presence or the aliveness or life or reality, but perhaps without our concepts about it. Yes, the direct experience.

Joan Tollifson
Yes, exactly. Yes, that’s it. It’s, it’s the, although concepts are not excluded because it includes everything, but, but, and it gets so paradoxical to try to describe it all, because it’s like, if you say, well, it’s everything and this is it, that, um, some people can hear that as okay. So just being a complete, you know, being Adolf Hitler or something, that’s fine, that’s spiritual, you know, or something, and it’s like, well, in a way, I mean, yes, everything is, it’s, it does, it is the recognition that even that is part of this whole happening somehow. But there’s also there, there is also a kind of waking up or transformative kind of seeing through the way that we get caught in the conceptual maps and and seeing through the way we get sort of hypnotized in our stories and the way we get confused and suffer unnecessarily. So there is a kind of, even though it also then includes all of that, yeah, so it gets very paradoxical to try to talk about.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, but I think that’s a good pointer to make a difference, because I mean, there is a completely different experience being present, recognizing that everything is part of it, or being lost in thought. It is a completely different experience in terms of being lost in thought without knowing you’re lost in thought, that kind of trans state where you are suffering, but you don’t know the origin of your suffering. But you can also have, you can also suffer by realizing, oh, wait a minute, ah, I see, I’m stuck in these concepts and I’ve been believing the stories I have in my head, and that is that kind of waking up, shift something and you see something and it relieves something, even though you might still feel the pain. It kind of wakes you up to, um, to reality, perhaps you could say, or your experience, I mean, in terms of that, your experience changes in a way, even if it doesn’t happen straight away.

Joan Tollifson
Yeah, and then, but again, paradoxically, because I agree with everything you said, but paradoxically, it’s also true that there’s something that’s totally the same about being lost in thought and being completely awake to the sensory actuality of this moment. You know, they’re both somehow asked, they’re both present experiencing, they’re both this same presence in some way, they’re both what is. And because I think that, you know, as we kind of go into something like meditation, we get to a place where we can kind of be feeling like, ah, when I’m really present and awake to the sensory actuality of the moment, that’s the good thing. That’s the spiritual thing. That’s when I’m like doing it right. And then there’s then there’s all the times that I’m really messing up and that I’m losing it, where I’m, you know, just lost in a story or, you know, whatever. And what I need to do is sort of. get rid of all of that and eventually just be completely awake in that sense of the word all the time. And and that’s, in my experience, a very. frustrating and disappointing. idea because we keep we keep lapsing. I mean, it’s sort of the nature of the mind. My friend, John Astin, likes to say it drifts. And I think that’s really a good description and it’s kind of nature of attention that it drifts around. It’s always like changing. So. There’s also the recognition that that that that of what’s the same in every different experience.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah. How would you describe that sameness?

Joan Tollifson
Well, just that it’s both. Both are experientially, they’re both present experiencing. They’re both. They’re both the same in some way, this same presence, the same. Aliveness, the same experiencing. They’re just different kind of variations of it or dimensions of it or something like that. And yes, we can distinguish between them. They do feel different. Just the way it feels different being angry as opposed to being joyous or. It feels different to be expanded rather than to be contracted. It feels different to be sitting quietly, having some spacious experience of total openness or to be caught up in some political argument with somebody. You know, these things all feel different, but they’re all present experiencing. They’re all the same, whatever you want to call it, the same isness, the same presence, the same whatever this isness. Yeah. And they’re all appearing here now. They’re all they’re all what whatever it’s, they’re all how this is showing up. So. So it’s helpful to see that, too, because. You know, like I find that I’m it’s very relieving to no longer feel like certain things that I’m doing in the thinking realm or whatever are are wrong or not so good or less spiritual or pathological or whatever, and that I really need to get rid of them.

Axel Wennhall
I think that’s such a crucial, crucial thing you’re bringing up because I mean, from the first encounter with meditation, the mistake or the mistaken view that you can’t meditate because thoughts keep popping up all the time. I mean, that’s for people who never meditated or just tried it once. That’s that can be a mistaken view. But then you also have it in terms of a spiritual seeker, in terms of trying. We’ve been speaking about different spiritual teachers and and different ideas that it’s just spacious and empty. And that relationship to our thoughts seems to be such a big thing. And I can see it in myself as well that and it’s it is ironic when you reflect on it and see that. Wait a minute. Why am I? Why am I fighting these thoughts again and again? And really for me, the freedom is when I realize, okay, wait a minute. Can I allow everything used to be as it is? And when I allow everything used to be as it is, there’s nothing to get rid of and there’s nothing to get. And just and just a taste of that is just. Yeah, that’s also beautiful.

Joan Tollifson
Yes, it is. And and then also the realization that everything is already allowed to be as it is, obviously, because it is as it is. And so it’s not like I have to do allowing somehow. But but just but it’s a beautiful idea that, you know, sort of or how we want to say it, to allow everything to be as it is. Yeah. And we don’t really need to do any. I mean, just seeing like just seeing a particular thought pattern that comes up over and over that is causing suffering or confusion. Just seeing that is what transforms it. You know, trying to get rid of it or trying not to do it anymore doesn’t work. That’s just part of the pattern, really. But just seeing it, seeing it and not seeing it and then judging it, not seeing it and taking it personally, not seeing it and and hating it, but just just seeing it, just seeing it like, oh, here’s this, here’s this thought pattern. Again, whatever it is like for me, it used to be always thinking about the future and I just started seeing that and seeing it and seeing it. And the more clearly I saw it again and again and again, the more it started to fall away. And lose its grip. So so those kinds of patterns are like when I was chasing enlightenment, you know, just suddenly, really not suddenly, but just. It’s always sudden because it’s always in the moment, but it’s also gradual in the sense that it kind of. Unfolds over time, but another one of those paradoxes. But anyway, just seeing this whole thing about me, am I enlightened yet? Have I got it yet? Am I as awake as so and so? And just seeing how that was all about me and all about the future and just seeing that again and again more and more clearly over and over. Until eventually it kind of disintegrated or evaporated again, not totally completely. It’s not like I never, as I said, never think about that or never think about the future anymore. But I don’t do those things in the kind of obsessive, painful way that I did for a long time. So awareness is really is really the transformer in my in my view, you know, and of course, our habitual approach is to try to transform things with willpower and and resistance and seeking and all of that. And so it’s a discovery that that doesn’t really work, that that’s really kind of part of the problem or the apparent problem. Because, as we’ve been saying, there’s never really a problem.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, I think one of the most powerful inquiries in terms of thoughts, I got it from, I think it was Joseph Goldstein. And this question is this thought useful? And I also like to bring it one step further on to is this thought useful right now? Because of course we have useful and valuable thoughts. They pop up from time to time. But if you can also bring that inquiry to is it useful right now? And it’s just so liberating to see that. I mean, there’s so I mean, 99% of all the thoughts are not really useful right now. And you’re seeing that, as you said, without have to do anything, without judging it. And I would say that’s that’s also something we have to see because the judging also happen just automatically. Oh, there’s judging there as well. And then be able to see that and see that it doesn’t do us any favor. It doesn’t help us. It doesn’t make us happier or take us closer to any imagined goal or whatever it might be. But it’s but it’s been yeah, is this thought useful has been very useful for me in terms of just relating to my thoughts in a more skillful way, I would say.

Joan Tollifson
Yeah, that’s a beautiful question. I’ve also found Byron Katie’s questions, you know, useful. You know, where she you take a thought, usually about someone else. You take a thought or something else and you ask, is this true? Can I really know this is true? And then how does it feel to hold this? Thought what or how would it feel like if I didn’t believe this thought? And you just feel into those questions, you know, don’t ask them conceptually, but really feel into them. And it’s I found that very helpful when I’m really stuck on being angry at something or whatever. Upset about the latest political nightmare or whatever it is. That can be very helpful.

Axel Wennhall
So we’ve been speaking about meditation, but what’s your definition? How do you view meditation?

Joan Tollifson
Well, of course, the word meditation, which I often try to avoid just because it has it like the word spirituality. It means so many different things, can mean so many different things. And I’ve tried many different kinds of meditation, but for me, I would say it’s just it’s just really just being present, which we can’t really not be, but just sort of being present right here right now. And it’s a kind of simplified space in the sense that you, you know, you put down your phone and you turn off your computer and you, you know, turn off the music and you stop doing all the things you’re doing and you just sit down or you don’t even have to be sitting, of course, because it can happen in other ways. But basically, you just. You’re being still and you’re being silent and you’re not doing anything. And you’re just here. And then all of a sudden, a lot of things begin to reveal themselves that you maybe don’t notice when you’re really busy. Like, for example, it was during an all day, my first all day sitting at the San Francisco Zen Center that I noticed that all my thoughts were about the future. I’m sure that had been going on forever and ever, but I’d never noticed it before because I was just too busy or whatever. So in that kind of silent stillness, things, we begin to notice things and and we might also begin to notice just feeling things like we begin to notice the breathing and just feel the breathing. Now we notice the sounds as just pure sound and we notice the feelings in the body as just sensation. And if pain happens, we start maybe get interested in exploring it. What is this? What is it like if I just tune into it as a sensation, you know? And and in doing all of that or in opening to all of that or however you want to put it, we begin to discover. How everything is kind of this ever changing, insubstantial, kaleidoscopic dance. You know, it’s not really the solid fixed. World that we kind of think we’re in. The more we kind of are just experiencing the simplicity of the moment. And of course, we find out it’s got a lot of complexity, too. But but and we begin to notice the kind of spaciousness of this, a wearing presence, you know, just the openness of it, the fact that we can’t really find a boundary between inside and outside, that that there’s no center to this experience. It’s just until a thought pops up about me, you know, but otherwise it’s just this centerless, edgeless dimension. You know, it’s just open and spacious and. And then we notice how contraction happens, you know, how suddenly we’re like sucked into some sort of agitated, me centered thought train about why did that happen yesterday? Why did they do that? You know, and all that sort of thing or whatever. And just seeing all that, being all that. And, you know, noticing all the things that go on and how the mind works, the judging, the storytelling, the planning, the going over and over things that happen, plotting out the rest of my life, you know, all the things that go on in the human mind. Just seeing all that, seeing our own particular patterns. And just also just enjoying the aliveness of the moment, you know, just enjoying the sound of rain. I mean, it’s so wonderful to listen to rain, all those wonderful sounds. We’re just, you know, whatever sounds are there, it could even be the refrigerator humming going on and off or that the heater going on and off or we’re. And even the sounds that we think, you know, in the beginning we might think, oh God, I can’t meditate because somebody has turned on a chainsaw or something. But but then it’s like, well, what is that like? Just to really listen to that sound as an experience, as a sensation. And. Because you start to notice how that sound. Yes, it is a neurologically unpleasant sound. There’s no question about that. But it becomes infinitely more unpleasant the way we think about it. And a large part of why it’s so unpleasant is that we immediately kind of contract into that sense of me, me being invaded by this horrible sound that I don’t want and that shouldn’t be happening and that’s ruining my. Meditation and destroying my chance for enlightenment. And, you know, in all those thoughts and that the resistance to that sound and the sense of me that it brings up, that is the suffering really. And when we can just open to the sound itself, it’s still neurologically not a really pleasant thing. You know, it’s a relief when it finally goes off, but it’s not nearly as unpleasant as it is when we’re when we’re fighting it. And so we discover all those kinds of things. And to me, that’s what meditation is about. It’s about exploration, discovery, enjoyment. And I like to see it as something that’s very open, like rather than, well, this is what you should do and this is what you’re going to find and all of that. But just. See what I mean. Yeah, hear what people suggest and then just see what see what moves you, see what comes up for you. And rather than trying to find or see what someone else is describing, just see what you see, see what see what reveals itself, you know, and and just see it as this really open exploration and discovery and enjoyment. Of what is and that. Everyone, every one of us is totally unique. So we’re all on a different path, you could say. And and we get so caught in trying to be somebody else or trying to be like somebody else. But instead, you know, what is it right here right now? What is this like? What is it not? What is it like even? But just what is it just this, you know? And yeah, so that to me is meditation, just kind of. Exploring all that.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah. In Sweden, we have this beer brand who comes from the northern part of Sweden and they have a beer like the drink beer. Exactly the drink beer. And they have a famous commercial who said the beer is called Norrlands Skål, if you want to be yourself for a moment. And I think that this is a brilliant ad for meditation as well. Like meditation, if you want to be yourself for a moment. Because it kind of brings me back to when we talked about different teachers and how we can project them. I think in terms of and we also been speaking about spirituality and and what we kind of mean with the word spirituality. But if we use, in lack of better words, spiritual spiritual maturity in terms of that, it seems also it has to involve the dropping away of thinking or projecting or about other people, teachers, friends, family, and ultimately see what works for you. What is true for you in that sense. It’s an exploration into your self. And when I say self, I don’t mean as something you will find or just this mystery in the terms in a sense of a better word. And yeah, I think it was a beautiful explanation of meditation because it becomes so more open and explorative when we can have this approach to meditation. And it’s also this paradox in terms of sometimes when I teach meditation, I use the acronym HAC, just to have people to kind of relate to something. And it stands for honesty, allowing, curiosity and kindness. And those can be seen as instructions or guidelines. But then when we kind of relax into just being aware, those also seems to come quite naturally. So it’s this, we kind of cultivate some kind of qualities, but at the same time, they are already here.

Joan Tollifson
Yeah, I think I like that beer commercial. It’s interesting, you know, like coming from a past of alcoholic drinking, you know, I think that’s a lot what getting drunk offered, I mean, or even just having a glass of wine, it’s sort of like this wonderful relaxation of the mind. And you’re just sort of here and you’re just kind of, you can just be here, just enjoying, you know, the colors in the room and that sort of thing, or whatever is going on. But obviously, drinking beer has its downside because, as I discovered, you know, in fact, Eckhart Tolle has a beautiful way of putting it. I think he says that, you know, getting drunk and all those kinds of things, they’re a way of sort of falling below the level of thoughts or back into the level of other animals. And that feels very good, but it comes with a lot of, but we’re going, whereas he’s talking about sort of going above the level of thought. And, um, I mean, I’m not really fond of a below and above metaphor, but still, I, you know, what he’s saying there, I can appreciate, you know, that it’s like meditation is, um, is a different way of doing that than, you know, like, than on getting drunk and just being yourself, just be not yourself again, like you were saying, not, not your ego, sort of, you know, whatever self, but not the sense of little me all tightened and calculated, but just yourself, in the sense of just just being comfortable in the moment, just being as you are, being as you are, everything, being as it is, being as you are.

Axel Wennhall
I think that’s such a key word, comfortable in the moment. It’s, uh, it’s highlighting also what I mean, being, being yourself, being myself, and it’s because the small sense of self or the me or whatever you want to call it, it’s, it comes with some fears. Is this right? Or can I do this? Can I be like this? Or just this complete relaxation? And I mean, my daughter is one and a half years old and I mean, she hasn’t really started to speak yet. So the ego process hasn’t really started with her yet. But I mean, for her, there’s no alternative. She’s just herself and it can be so refreshing just to be with her and in that sense, forgetting about myself.

Joan Tollifson
Yeah, yeah, there’s no, uh, that sort of self-consciousness takes a while to kind of kick in that kind of self-monitoring self-consciousness, which of course is part of growing up. I mean, it’s not like again, in the same way, we’re not going backwards to being other animals, we’re not going backwards to being babies again, and we can’t, you know, and it’s even being comfortable with being uncomfortable, you know, it’s even being comfortable in a certain sense with those moments of tension and anxiety and uncomfortableness.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, because I think that’s also one thing, a common mistake, and I definitely, I’m definitely doing it from time to time, even though I can see through it more and more often is the, I think, in terms of also coming back to different spiritual teachings and teachers and transcending and being this open and unconditional love. And in those teachings, at least for myself, you can, and you can hear the Buddhist teaching about the end of suffering, for example. And at least for myself, meditation has been a kind of technique to try to avoid pain. But the longer I am in this game, it just reveals for me that pain will be here. Pain is part of life and there’s nothing to avoid. But when I don’t have to get rid of the pain, when I don’t have to avoid the pain, when I can kind of meet the pain, it still hurts. But I don’t suffer as much. And I think that that that has also been more and more revealing and also to see that love hurts as well. So how do you view the difference between pain and suffering and how has it unfolded in your life?

Joan Tollifson
Well, yeah, I mean, I think I distinguish sort of that pain and painful circumstances are an inevitable part of life, whereas suffering is kind of the add on what we do with that, how we respond to that or react to that that creates the suffering. So, you know, one of my great discoveries in Zen early on was being an excruciating pain on a long session, you know, and then just instead of resisting it or with the chainsaw example, you know, just when you stop resisting it and just really open to it, it becomes interesting. It’s no longer unbearable. You see that it’s not a solid thing and the suffering falls away. The pain may still be there or the painful circumstance may still be there. But and again, not to get some, you know, all of this can so easily become, you know, anything we say can become a trap sort of because, you know, like, for example, when I was going through cancer treatment and there was a lot of pain involved in discomfort and with the chemotherapy and the radiation and it wasn’t like I spent every moment just feeling into the sensations. I mean, I did a lot of different things. I mean, I took the pain medication they gave me. I watched movies, you know, to distract myself from the pain, which is very effective. And it’s a very interesting thing that when you’re watching a movie, you suddenly you’ve had a horrible toothache. You start watching a movie and all of a sudden you don’t have a toothache anymore because you’re just not paying attention to it. You’re paying attention to this other thing. So, but I loved what you said about even what did you say? Even love is painful and it’s I mean, where I how I felt that I mean, of course, there’s the pain involved in any kind of personal love relationship, but but just even in the larger sense of unconditional love. Yeah, you know, I think what part of this waking up is about we are becoming more and more sensitive in a way we’re becoming more and more open. And so it’s not like you become more callous or I mean, in a way, yes, you see that everything like the factory farming and the genocides and all the horrible things are, they’re all part of this. But at the same time, you’re in a way even more sensitive to the, to the pain and to the to the, you know, so it’s not like it’s about, it’s not about becoming closed down and, um, yeah, so in that sense, love, which is really just kind of another way of being, you know, what is love? It’s just attention, openness, inclusivity, allowing. And isn’t that what all of these horrible things, quote unquote, most need? Like, you know, when we approach all those things in life that we see as, you know, harmful, hurtful, when we approach them with, with, with, you know, hatred and trying to smash them, we so often end up just empowering them and or creating a new version of them, a new, improved version of them. Um, you know, we’ve seen that in so many political revolutions that start out with such a good idea and the next thing you know, you know, we have Stalin or something, you know, and and it’s like, I think that’s because it hasn’t gone deep enough. It had, you know, it isn’t, it, it’s not getting to the root, it’s trying to deal with something more on the surface, which has its place. I’m not, you know, but, but it’s like when we’re, when we come from love, when there is love, it’s, it’s like a, it’s, it moves really differently, you know, and I think we all experience that. We all know what I’m talking about. And if we can’t make that happen, you know, we can’t decide I’m going to love this. And in fact, that’s again, that’s kind of the wrong approach. It’s like, it’s like, because what is, what does love do? Actually, it doesn’t. Love doesn’t move by saying, you know, I’m gonna love everything, which is like will and force. Love moves by more like by well, what is this? What is this? What’s going on here? Why is this person doing what they’re doing? What’s moving them to do this? You know, what, what, in what ways am I doing something very similar in my own way? In what ways, you know, are we, what do we have in common here? What’s, you know, love moves in that kind of inclusive opening, allowing, understanding, compassionate way.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, it’s interesting because when you kind of look at it and as you mentioned, like when there is curiosity and when there is kindness, then there is a sense of love, but also when there is kindness and allowance, there is also perhaps some kind of curiosity. So they are intertwined, those facets of awareness of the here and now in that sense. And yeah, I think it’s just been so useful for me to be able to see that and perhaps also not to be afraid of that kind of sensitivity and pain. Because just as an example, I’ve experienced and I reckon many parents experiences when you start to leave your kids at preschool or kindergarten and in the beginning they can be so sad when you leave them. And I just had this strange, it was strange in that way because I didn’t expect it, but it was powerful as well. Because when I left my daughter at preschool and she became very sad and I had to leave and it hurt so much. But then my response to it was just that I was so grateful. I was so grateful for feeling that hurt, that pain, because I knew that was that was the true essence of love. Like that was one of the moments in my life when I really understood like, okay, wow, this is this is unconditional love and Jesus, it hurts. And wow, I’m so grateful for experiencing this.

Joan Tollifson
Yeah, I’m not a parent, but I, you know, in my head is off to anyone who is because I think it’s the world’s most difficult and important job. But and very difficult. I’ve taken care of a lot of kids. But I mean, raising a kid has got to be and taking them to school in this country. I mean, with all the school shootings we have and everything, it’s like you really don’t know where you’re leaving them, you know, it’s like and that has to be. I mean, a part of what a parent does is just it’s a process of letting them go, letting them go and, you know, eventually they’re going to leave home and, you know, and also letting them make mistakes, like realizing that you can’t save them, you can’t, you know, they’re going to make certain mistakes, they’re going to go down certain wrong, you know, wrong, whatever you want to call it, certain painful paths. They’re going to have to find their own way in certain things and and you are going to have to, you know, leave them in many ways and and be left by them and and and who would want a parent who didn’t feel anything about all that? I mean, or who dealt with all those feelings by just getting drunk, totally drunk and beating everybody up, which is what happens with a lot of people, I think. But but, you know, to really feel all that and and be present with that and it’s beautiful, not easy, but no, not easy.

Axel Wennhall
And I think that’s probably what happens when people disconnect, either with alcohol and drugs or just disconnect from from the present moment, if you can say that, in terms of falling asleep in daily life, that you don’t, you kind of become afraid of your emotions, you can’t really take them in and fully feel and and you can’t feel that pain that love comes with as well.

Joan Tollifson
Yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s, um, it hurts, and so you just sort of look for the first easy out.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, so we we’ve been touching a lot of subjects and the last kind of subject, which is pretty big, but we don’t have to dwell on it too much, but it feels like a good end to our conversation is your view on identity, because we’ve been speaking a lot about being able to see the mini me or the small me who wants to become enlightened in the future or so. How do you view identity in terms of spirituality, in the terms of we’ve been using with the words we’ve been using here?

Joan Tollifson
Oh, I tell you, this is something that I’ve. This has been a call on for me over my entire spiritual life, I think, and maybe my entire life, because, uh, you know, I’ve been part of various groups, like being a woman, being a lesbian, you know, being somewhere on the transgender spectrum, um, dealing with issues like racism that also involve identity. You know, I mean, I’m white, but being concerned about racism and identity politics, as we call it, you know, which is, um, and then be, and then, you know, being with Tony Packer, who was questioning all identities and talking about how she, who grew up, she grew up half Jewish in in Nazi Germany and for a while said that she was very caught up in being identified as Jewish, and then had a moment when she did. That just kind of fell away during her Zen training and, um, and so we would, we would look, you know, into that question a lot, and I looked into it a lot with her, and I’ve been looking into it again more and more recently in terms of a lot of stuff I’ve been looking into in regards to the transgender issue and which I have all kinds of different feelings about. And, um, and this whole question of what, what does it mean to identify as something and who is it that identifies? And clearly there’s a place for this kind of identity as this or that. I mean, it could be identity as a parent, identity as a teacher, identity as as part of some social group, like being black, being white, being gay, being straight, all those kinds of things. Um, and I have to say it’s really, it’s a live co-on for me. I don’t like feel like I have the answer to this one by any means, but it seems clear that we can get stuck in identity in ways that are very, very unhelpful, and it can be sort of a false sense of belonging to some group. It can be a way of making other people other. It can be all kinds of things that don’t seem very helpful. Um, it can also be very helpful. I mean, I remember I’m also a person with a disability. I’m missing an arm. And I remember, you know, when I first went to a group of people with disabilities and we all started talking, it was like, so, and this happened with the women’s movement too, you know, realizing that things we thought were our own personal, private thing were actually something everybody else in this group was experiencing because it was part of the social phenomenon of being in this group. So it’s very helpful and very freeing. And then at some point it can become something else. It can become this kind of, this is my identity and I’m sticking to it and you’re not that, you know, and all that kind of thing. It’s like, um, and it also seems like all of our, we all have many different identities. I mean, you know, you’re a parent, you’re a husband or whatever you call yourself, you’re a, you’re a, you know, you’re a teacher, you’re a podcast or a, an app person. Um, you know, you’re, you have all these different, you have all these different identities. You’re Swedish, you know, et cetera, et cetera. We all have all these different identities and like, and I think identity is a very fluid thing. Like, I don’t think it’s very fixed, you know, I think it’s, you know, all the questions that are coming up with queer theory and the, and the, um, trans movement and have been in there for a long time with the women’s movement and everything. Just what is, what is a woman? What is a man? What does it mean to be feminine or masculine? What does it mean to be black or to be white? What does it mean to be a teacher? What does it mean to be a student? What does it mean to be a parent? You know, it’s like to me, this is, well, as I say, I don’t have the answer on this one, but it’s a living colon for me. That’s been with me my whole, my whole long, my probably my whole life really, and certainly on my whole spiritual journey. And, you know, the spiritual world often tends to go to the place of, well, there are no ideas. You know, you just, you’re just boundless awareness. And, you know, if you think you’re anything else, that’s delusion. And, you know, you should just forget all that. And, and, you know, and what, in fact, what that often does is just reinforce the current dominant power structure, you know, because it doesn’t challenge it in any way. And, you know, if you just look at the history of religions, they’ve been very male dominated, very, you know, social, you know, they’re not like, and so if you just say, well, forget all that, it just goes on like that. It just goes on like that. And so I don’t know if I got to what you were thinking of with the question, but, um, I don’t know, how do you see it?

Axel Wennhall
First of all, when I hear you talk about identity, my impression, what I imagine is that you don’t hold on to your different identities. You don’t grasp them. You don’t identify with your identities as much more. Um, I think for myself, it’s, it’s also been a burning question in terms of that. And, um, seeing through a lot of different identities, I think my first awakening was seeing through, uh, this kind of A-type person who always had to perform and always try to be best or kind. And that was so relieving, like it was, um, quite a big awakening experience because I, I held so tightly and, uh, it made me suffer in many different kind of ways. And, um, yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m trying to be more comfortable with the kind of realization that I don’t know. To be in that, I don’t, yeah, the not knowing. And, and to be honest with you, I find that hard because there’s this strong impulse to get it, to understand and know. And, uh, and also there’s a kind of comfort in identity, in, in being part of a group or identify with a nationality or being male or whatever it might be. Identify with my family, for example. But for me, it feels when I kind of can live with the uncertainty and the not knowing, it feels more true in a sense. It feels more real. It feels more fresh. It feels, um,

Joan Tollifson
I think that’s so important, you know, because, yeah, we do have this deep desire for the answers, for resolution, for certainty. And we really don’t know what’s going on here. Honestly, we don’t. And, and, you know, in the, I mean, I think this is true all over the world now, but certainly in this country, we have an incredibly polarized situation, you know, between the left and the right and, and, you know, the pro vaccine and the anti-vaccine and, you know, the, the you know, all everything gets divided in these different groups and everybody is just so. Attached and identified with their side, and we’re not even listening to people on the other side anymore. We’re just demonizing them. And, you know, and I mean, I’ve done it myself. It’s not like this is something everyone else is doing and I’m above it all. No. Um, but it’s, um, it’s very painful and it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, it just perpetuates conflict and division and all those sort of things that waking up is about waking up from in a way, you know, so it’s like to really recognize that we don’t know is. Is so important. And. I also, you know, it popped into my head that that years ago I studied the Enneagram, you know, the system of personality types, and I was very resistant to studying it because I thought, well, this is like putting people into boxes. You know, I’m against it. But several people, including a Zen priest, or my therapist at the time, urged me to take this class on the Enneagram. So I did. And I found it so helpful because. You know, not because it was putting everyone in a box, but because I realized it made me realize for the first time that people have really different ways of dealing with conflict and stress. You know, one person, their approaches to go hide in their room for a week. Another person wants to talk about it right now and clear it up. Another person wants to have a knockdown, drag out fight. And each of those approaches, if you don’t, if the other person isn’t doing it that way, it means you don’t love me, you know, because and to realize that, oh, that isn’t what it means. It just means that this person, this person isn’t going into their room because they don’t love me. Or they’re not trying to provoke a knockdown, drag out fight because they hate me. This is this is the way they deal with conflict. And the way I deal with it is different. And when I can really see that and see that for what it is, it allows me to give them the space to do it in their way, you know, to be who they are with it. And and also it really helped me to see my own tendencies, like, you know, what I was sort of caught up in doing in life. And and to really get beyond that in some way or see through that. I don’t know if we ever get beyond all this stuff. It’s more like just we become more and more aware of it. We see it. We’re less and less caught by it. So so that was an interesting kind of thing where on the one hand, it was sort of a system about putting everyone in boxes. And then on the other hand, it was really helpful in in in getting getting out of my own box and having space for all the other people. So so I think this is all, as we’ve been saying all along, it has a lot of paradoxes. There’s a lot of paradoxes and and we have a big tendency to want to land on one side or the other of things, you know, like I’m on this side and I’m against that side. But, you know, like people get into these things, there is free will, there’s no free will. And it’s kind of like. We can’t put life into boxes. Really.

Axel Wennhall
No. I think that’s a great way to to end our conversation. I want to be mindful of your time. So we have a last section in the podcast called five quick questions. And then after that, would you mind just guiding a short meditation? Sure. Nice. Nice. Okay. So first question, what’s your favorite place in the world? And you’re not allowed to say here.

Joan Tollifson
Oh, that was what I was gonna say.

Axel Wennhall
That’s the most non-dual answer. I have to. Okay, so what’s your favorite place in the world?

Joan Tollifson
I really couldn’t say. I mean, I love the Bay Area where I lived for many years in California. I love Springwater where I lived in Northwestern New York for many years. I love where I am now in Oregon. And I’ve been to many places that, you know, were incredibly beautiful that I love. But I can’t really say that I have a favorite place. Was this a trick question or something?

Axel Wennhall
No, but it’s just, I always have to, when I speak to a non-dual teacher, I always have to have that asterisk. You’re not allowed to say here. It always comes, it’s, I can just see you when you’re, when you’re trying, when you’re answering this question, you just want to say, but it’s here.

Joan Tollifson
Yeah, but it really is here. I mean, I think that is really the most wonderful part about sort of waking up or whatever you want to call it is really, really, because I spent a lot of my life like looking for the better place, looking for the perfect place. And wherever you go, it’s never perfect in that sense. Okay. Yeah. So go ahead. These are quick questions. Okay.

Axel Wennhall
I will shut up. Second question. If you could invite free people, they could either be dead or alive for a dinner. Who would you invite?

Joan Tollifson
Oh, dear. Well, I don’t know if it would all be at the same dinner, but I’d really like to talk to both my mother and father again, particularly my father, because I didn’t get, he died kind of early. And, and I’d really love to talk to Tony Packer again.

Axel Wennhall
If you had to recommend one book or a documentary?

Joan Tollifson
Oh, dear. Well, I suppose I should recommend one of my own books. I don’t know. I can’t, I can’t pick one book. It’s too hard.

Axel Wennhall
Okay. So we all have to read all your books now.

Joan Tollifson
All of my books. Well, they’re all very different, but if you want to sort of a quick distilled version of my essential message, Nothing to Grasp is the one I would recommend. And then three of them are more like storybooks that have a lot of my life story in them and personal narrative. And that would be bare bones, meditation, awake in the heartland and death, the end of self-improvement.

Axel Wennhall
Fourth question. What’s the best advice you got?

Joan Tollifson
These are tough questions. I don’t, I, I really have a hard time relating to this sort of the favorite, the best, you know, like, I don’t know. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
What, what’s a good advice you’ve received? A helpful or a skillful or a useful advice?

Joan Tollifson
Well, being just this moment, be here now, being this, this is all there is.

Axel Wennhall
Last question. What are you grateful for right now?

Joan Tollifson
Everything. I really am. I mean, I’m grateful for you, for this podcast. I’m grateful for the place where I live, which is a wonderful retirement community in a beautiful place. I’m grateful. I’m grateful for that, for all the things that seem like difficulties. I’m grateful for, you know, having lost an arm. I’m grateful for having had cancer. I’m grateful for having been a drunk and a drug abuser. No, I’m grateful for the mistakes and the successes and the so-called. And I’m really grateful for, for my whole life. And that, that seems to grow more and more intense as I, as I get older, just grateful for, for every moment. I don’t feel grateful in every moment. I want to clarify that. I do have moments of stop that chainsaw.

Axel Wennhall
Okay. So if, if the listeners have a chainsaw close by, perhaps they want to put it on now for the meditation. So I’m, I’m handing over the microphone to you, Joan. So would you please guide us through a meditation?

Joan Tollifson
Well, simply being here. We’re just here. We’re not trying to do anything. We’re not trying to get into some better state. We’re not trying to get rid of anything that’s here. We’re not trying to make anything happen. Just being here as it is. Just being awake to how it is. Which is effortless because this awakeness is already here. And how it is, is already here. So it’s just simply being here. Not doing anything special. Just feeling the breathing. Hearing sounds, if there are any. And without labeling them. I mean, the label might pop up, but just let the label go and just hear the sound as the way you might hear music just as sensation. Feel sensations in the body. Feel your feet on the floor or your body meeting the chair or the cushion, whatever your situation is. Feel if there’s any kind of tension or contraction anywhere in the body. There is just, just feel that as sensation. Don’t try to get rid of it, but just. Just feel it with curiosity. What is it? How does it feel? Not what is it like, let’s come up with an answer, but. But just to actually feel it. Be interested in it. And you might explore whether. Whether you can actually find a place where what you think of as inside of you turns into what you think of as outside of you. You can think of a place, you can. You can imagine a place, but can you actually find a place? Is there an actual boundary between inside and outside? Or is it one whole undivided, centerless experiencing? And again, you’re not trying to have any special experience, but just exploring that question. I’m just feeling into it and seeing what reveals itself. Just noticing that. You never ever depart from right here right now. Different times and locations. They show up here now. But this immediacy, this presentness, this here-ness, this now-ness is ever-present. It’s what you are. It’s what is. You might notice what’s the same in every different experience. Whether you’re lost in thought or awake to the vibrant sensations of the moment. Whether you’re feeling contracted or expanded. What’s the same in every different experience? Is there anything that’s the same? Maybe there isn’t. Don’t go with anyone else’s answers to these questions, but. See them as, if they interest you, as questions to explore on your own and not to explore by thinking about them, but to explore by really directly feeling into them. Experientially. And with no particular result in mind, but just openly not knowing what you might find or what might reveal itself. And if you’re interested, you might explore decisions and choices as they happen and really watch and see how they happen. What goes on when you’re making a choice or a decision? Just see the different thoughts that pop up and are you authoring those thoughts or are they just popping up? And then the decisive moment when you, if you’re trying to choose between this and that and suddenly you’ve decided, so to speak. Were you in control of that decisive moment? Could you have made it happen any sooner or did it just happen? And just really be curious about all this. Watch as choices and decisions happen and see if you can find the chooser, the decider. As you’re talking, see if you can find anybody who’s authoring what’s coming out of your mouth. Is there a speaker back there or just words pouring out? Or if you’re thinking, just thoughts popping up, bubbling up. Or is there a thinker or an author? Just explore all that. And just enjoy. Being here, we take all this very seriously sometimes and think it’s all about some big. Big, I don’t know, practice or something to get us somewhere. But instead, what if? What if we’re just enjoying the gift of being here, of being? Just enjoying what’s here, whatever it is, enjoying being. Enjoying the simple things in life, like taking a walk or listening to the rain or or listening to a chainsaw. Noticing the difference between the actual experience of something. The actual present experiencing of pain and the thoughts about it. The effort to make it go away. Noticing the difference between those things and the actual sensations that you’re calling pain. What if you don’t call it anything? What is it? What is it like? What is boredom if you don’t call it anything? If you’re just curious about it, what is it? What does it feel like? If you find yourself. Engaging in some sort of addictive activity or substance, maybe it’s possible to just pause for a moment before you light the cigarette, for example. Just pause and just feel the urgency, the urge. To smoke. Just feel what that urge is like. Just for a minute. Just feel that. So these are just possibilities for. Things that might be of interest to explore. But above all, just follow your own. Follow your own interest, your own. Inclination and. Don’t settle for anybody else’s answers or anybody else’s. Ideas, just. Look for yourself. And just notice that right here, right now. Just being here. What is this? We don’t know what it is. We don’t need to know. And yet here it is, this. Whatever this is, this aliveness, this space, this beingness. None of the words are it. Just allowing this vastness to be here. Without needing to put a label on it, without needing to explain it, without needing to. Understand it or figure it out. Just. Just being. This happening. And noticing that it’s never the same way twice. Never. It’s always changing. And yet it’s always right here, right now. It’s always just this. Just this.

Axel Wennhall
Thank you. Thank you. It was beautiful. And yeah, thank you for the beautiful meditation. And I’m so grateful for the opportunity to meet you and speak with you.

Joan Tollifson
Oh, it’s been really lovely meeting you and talking to you. I really enjoyed it. So thank you for inviting me.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah. And I highly recommend people to visit your website and read your outpourings. They are as good as it gets. So we will provide a link in the episode. Thank you. Okay. Take care and be well. You too. Thank you. you for listening to this episode of the Swedish podcast, Meditera Mera. We hope you have been inspired by our conversation and by Jon’s meditation. This is a podcast from the Swedish meditation app, Mindfully, and our purpose is to help people live an awake and meaningful life. And if you have enjoyed this episode, please share it to your friends so we can inspire even more people to meditate and experience the simplicity of what is. And if there’s anything we will take with us from our conversation with Jon, is it that everything is included in reality, both the confusion and clarity. Take care and be well.