This is a transcript from our podcast episode with Chris Germer about meditation and mindful self-compassion.

Axel Wennhall
Hi and a warm welcome to the Swedish podcast, “Meditera Mera”, which in direct translation means meditate more with me, Axel Wennhall, who asked the questions, and producer Gustav Nord. This is our fourth episode in English, with more to come, and we had to take an involuntary break due to the current situation, but now we’re really happy to be back. I’m currently sitting in a cabin outside Västerås, which is my old hometown, healthy but self-isolating, while working on a really exciting project that we hope to share with you soon. And Gustav is up at Höga Kusten, at his dad’s place, and we’re now going to call Chris Germer, who lives just outside Boston. Chris Germer lives in Cambridge in the States. Since 1985, he has had a private practice in mindfulness and compassion-based psychotherapy, and he’s also a part-time lecturer on Psychiatry at Harvard Medical School-Cambridge Health Alliance. Chris is the author of five books, including The Mindful Path to Self-Compassion. In 2007, Chris began to collaborate with Kristin Neff, and in 2010, they co-developed Mindful Self-Compassion, an empirically supported eight-week training program for the general public. The Center for Mindful Self-Compassion was established in 2012, and since then, tens of thousands of people have learned Mindful Self-Compassion from over a thousand teachers worldwide. Chris and Kristin have also published a best-selling workbook on the Mindful Self-Compassion, and now recently also a professional textbook. As you can hear, Chris is really one of the pioneers in self-compassion, and that is exactly what we’ll discuss with him today. What is the difference between self-compassion and mindfulness? How can one more skillfully deal with feelings of shame? And what advice do Chris have for all of us who wants to meditate more and be kinder to ourselves?

Chris Germer
Let me just make sure that things are recording nicely here. I’m gonna pause and then start again. I mean stop. Sounds great. Breathing.

Axel Wennhall
Hi Chris, really glad that we could connect. We were supposed to meet in Sweden the other week where we had a conversation arranged, and I know you had a workshop training planned as well, but we all need to stay home at the moment, so I’m really glad that we were able to meet this way. And I am really excited to speak to you about meditation and self-compassion. Actually, when I first started to meditate, I didn’t really get the whole point of self-compassion. I had this idea, because it was an idea, that if I was just able to stay present, everything would be fine. But the more I meditate and the deeper I go into this practice and into this journey, I can really start to see that this is the jewel in the practice, to be able to be kind and compassionate to oneself. So I’m really keen to explore your work and your journey here today. But first of all, how are you and how is things where you are at right now?

Chris Germer
Thank you. Thank you for this interview, Axel, and things are well here.

Axel Wennhall
Great to hear. Before we begin our conversation, this is an interactive podcast with the meaning that we’ll add some meditations in the conversation. And you’re literally at the other side of the world. But would you mind start with doing a short landing meditation for the three of us, for Gustav, you and me, and also for the listeners?

Chris Germer
Sure. Happy to do it. Thank you. So please, if you’re listening, just find a comfortable position. And perhaps beginning by feeling the floor underneath your feet. Or the chair solidly supporting you. Allowing yourself to feel safely anchored to the earth. And then checking in for a moment with your heart. How is my heart today? How is my heart in this moment? Your emotional heart, your spiritual heart. How do I feel right now? And seeing if you can allow whatever you’re feeling to be just as it is. If only for this one moment. Give it a lot of room, a lot of space, knowing that this is part of the human experience. That whatever you’re feeling right now, you’re not alone. It’s shared by many others. Feeling in this moment what it’s like. To have a human body and to be alive. And then, if you like, if it feels right to you, perhaps offering yourself a. Inner smile of welcome. Welcome to this moment. Welcome to this podcast. Welcome. An inner smile as you might smile at a young child or someone whom you love. Trying it out right now. What is it like to just smile? Smile at your own being from the inside. Appreciating a moment of warmth. Welcome. And then, when it feels right to slowly release this. Little meditation, this arriving meditation, just let it go. And allow yourself. In this moment to be just as you are. And letting this moment. Be just as it is. As you slowly open your eyes.

Axel Wennhall
Thank you. Wow. What a start.

Chris Germer
Thank you, Axel.

Axel Wennhall
All right, Chris. So I am curious, where were you in your life when you came across meditation?

Chris Germer
Oh, well, I was a young guy. Now I’m 67 years old and I was 25. And I was living in tubing in Germany. And I had just gone there in order to do some research at a university psycho-physiological laboratory. And I was really, I felt very alone and somewhat anxious. And there was a transcendental meditation center just around the corner from where I lived. And I walked in there and I learned TM. That was my first exposure.

Axel Wennhall
And how has sort of your meditation practice evolved from the first encountering with TM?

Chris Germer
Yeah. Well, so I had a remarkable experience on TM. A few months after I started to practice, I was on a meditation retreat. And I kind of popped out of my head in the middle of one of the meditation sessions. And I had what one would call a peak experience. I was just bathed in endless light. And there was even no self. It was just radiant light. And then at some point, my sense of self started to travel over the landscape. And anyhow, this went on. Different various things happened. And then it only lasted for about three minutes. And then I kind of dropped back in my body and I thought this was kind of a typical thing that happens on TM, you know? So I didn’t make much of it, but I did wish to have that experience again. And of course it never happened. To this day, you know, 52 years or how many, 42 years later. But after that I went to India because I wanted to get more deeply into the source of Transcendental Meditation. And I spent a year wandering around India, meeting with saints and sages and shamans and actually doing a research project under the umbrella of the Bangalore National Institute of Mental Health. And in that context, I met a lot of wonderful beings and learned different kinds of meditation and so forth. What I really enjoyed at the time was devotional singing and mantra meditation. But I also learned in a cave in Sri Lanka, mindfulness meditation and practiced for about six weeks and really developed a taste for it. And so after that, so this was in 1976 or 77. Then after that, I went to graduate school and got a PhD in clinical psychology and met colleagues here at Harvard University who were also very much into mindfulness meditation. And that interaction strengthened my mindfulness practice. So then for many years, maybe 20 years, I was practicing both mindfulness meditation as well as more devotional practice. And so I would say more around the year 2000, I started to emphasize more and more mindfulness meditation. And I finally then got into self-compassion around 2006. So another six years after that. Yeah, so it’s been a long arc, I can say. Started with TM, then devotional practice, then mindfulness, combination of both, like that. But for the last 15 years, really, it’s been full on mindfulness and self-compassion practice.

Axel Wennhall
How came it that you sort of not ended up, but sort of came up with the mindful self-compassion program? What led you to develop that and dig deeper into that kind of practice?

Chris Germer
Yeah. So these colleagues and I wrote a book in 2005, published a book in 2005 called Mindfulness and Psychotherapy. And around that time, I needed to start doing more public speaking because the book was quite well received and I got many invitations. But for the 20 years prior to publishing this book, I suffered terribly from public speaking anxiety. So much so that at one point, I was giving a talk to about 30 therapists and somebody in the back of the room yells out, take a breath, because I could hardly speak. But technically, I was an expert in anxiety disorders and I knew everything that, as a clinical psychologist, I knew everything that one should do, but nothing touched it, you know. So anyhow, after this book was published, I had to start doing more public speaking and it was a real problem. And once, I would say four months before I was going to give a lecture at a conference at Harvard Medical School, I was on a meditation retreat and really quite, hmm, you might say anxious and self-absorbed and preoccupied, thinking about this and other things. And then the meditation teacher just kind of said, sort of paraphrasing, she said, why don’t you just love yourself, you know, why don’t you just sit on the cushion and just love yourself? Practicing meta meditation, loving kindness meditation. So that’s what I did. I sat down, I just started saying, you know, may I be safe, may I be peaceful, may I be healthy. I just started to love myself and I started to feel really good. And I noticed my anxiety just kind of disappeared. I noticed I became more mindful. I was more aware of my thoughts and, you know, my, you could say my field of view, my vision was more spacious and relaxed. So I thought this can’t be a bad thing, you know. First, I thought I was cheating because in a meditation retreat because I was happy. But what I realized is that practicing loving kindness meditation was just really good for mindfulness. So then when I went home, I started to practice loving kindness meditation every morning. And as this conference was coming up, you know, four months hence, with each passing week, I became more and more anxious about this. But when I was sitting in meditation, I would just say to myself whenever I became anxious, oh, may you be safe, may you be peaceful, may you be happy. And then curiously, when the conference arrived and I was introduced and I started to stand up to speak, the usual terror rose, you know. But there was kind of a new voice in the back of my head, which was a voice I’d been practicing for four months that said, oh, may you be safe, may you be peaceful, may you be happy. And then as I was standing at the podium looking out over, you know, 600 colleagues, I just had, I felt so much love, I felt so much warmth, I felt so happy to see them. And this was completely unique in my experience, because if you suffer from public speaking anxiety, the audience is the enemy, you know, the audience is, you know, in your mind, criticizing you, seeing the worst in you. But in this case, all that fear was sort of turned into kind of a joyful energy. And so anyhow, this was absolutely unique, never happened to me before. And I thought, oh, there’s something to this, you know, particularly, you know, loving kindness, meditation for oneself. I didn’t know anything about self-compassion at the time. This was all new to me. But I learned a few things from that experience, Axel. One was that, first of all, public speaking anxiety is not an anxiety disorder, it’s a shame disorder. Because all these years I’ve been trying to work with anxiety, making space for it, or, you know, taking medication for it, everything, I tried so many different things to alleviate anxiety, but I couldn’t because behind the anxiety was shame. And I couldn’t face the possibility that the audience would consider me stupid or fraudulent or incompetent. Which I thought I was because I was here talking about mindfulness and I was so nervous I couldn’t speak, you know, that kind of doesn’t look good, you know. So this was shame. I felt a lot of shame about public speaking anxiety and I couldn’t face that. I was just trying to work with the anxiety. But with the self-compassion, the kindness towards self, loving kindness towards self, the shame just kind of was addressed without even knowing I had shame. And I only realized afterwards that it was shame. But another thing that I learned in that experience, Axel, was that sometimes in order to hold our moment to moment experience like anxiety or shame, we need first to hold ourselves. We have to be first really kind to ourselves and comfort ourselves and be supportive of ourselves before we are actually capable of holding our experience. This was unique insight to me. And that’s actually what compassion is. Compassion is a loving awareness of the experiencer. Compassion is about sentient beings, the relationship of one sentient being to another or toward ourselves. Whereas mindfulness is more loving awareness of moment to moment experience. So what I learned is we have to sometimes when we’re in the grip of intense and disturbing emotions, first we need to bring loving awareness to ourselves before we can bring loving awareness to our experience. So that was, you could say, a watershed event where I discovered now what I really need to do is to integrate compassion, in other words, kindness, self-compassion, kindness toward myself into my meditation practice. So that was in 2006.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, there’s a lot of things that come up in my mind when I hear you speak about this. And I want to get into shame later in our conversation because it is something that I came across quite a lot when I’ve been reading up towards this interview and something that I think most of us suffer from. Another thing that came to my mind when you spoke about these kind of thoughts that comes up and what I’ve seen for myself is one of the most compassionate things I can do to myself is not to take my thoughts that serious, and that is difficult sometimes. Sometimes it’s even difficult to be aware that we are thinking, and the second step is sort of to not take them as serious, to see them as I don’t know, Hypothesis or mental images or whatever it is, to not take them as facts. And that for me, that has been an act of love and kindness towards myself to be able to make that shift into my consciousness. But you were speaking a little bit about the difference between mindfulness and self-compassion. Could you sort of elaborate a little bit more on how they sort of work together and how you can sort of use them perhaps together when one meditates, if one have sort of more practice, the mindfulness meditation or mantra meditation and then haven’t really came across the self-compassion practice?

Chris Germer
So first of all, mindfulness and self-compassion, they’re really co-mingled. And when mindfulness is in full bloom, it’s full of compassion, sort of as you were describing seeing thoughts as thoughts, when we can really do that, there’s a lot of compassion and kindness in it. So when mindfulness is in full bloom, it’s full of compassion. When compassion is in full bloom, it’s full of mindfulness. But usually what happens in our lives is that our mindfulness or compassion is not full, you know. So then we need to kind of intentionally spice it up with something, you know. In other words, how can we make our mindfulness more full? Sometimes the way to do that is to intentionally bring in a little warmth, you know, a little compassion and so forth. So when we’re just practicing traditional mindfulness and we’re suffering, the invitation is to make space for the experience and to make some room for it and to hold it in tender awareness. But the instruction with compassion training is to love yourself, you know, just to be really kind to yourself in this moment, to love yourself in this moment. And that can make a big difference when we can’t make room for our experience, you know, when we cannot see our thoughts as thoughts. It’s usually because we’re kind of in a threat state, you know, we’re kind of vigilant, wary, stressed, uneasy. Physiologically, we’re kind of in a threat state. So what does it take to actually settle the mind when we’re feeling threatened? Historically, as human beings, the way we have been able to feel less stressed is by going to another person who would comfort us. And this has been the case since we were born. But what we can also do in our own meditation practice is we can be with ourself in the same kind of warm and kind way as we often get from others to regulate our emotions. And in particular, what happens then is that we move, as Paul Gilbert in the UK would say, from a threat state to a care state. So what enables us actually then to be more mindful is by activating caregiving and kindness. And then the mind settles down and we can practice, you know, clear seeing, we can see what’s happening in our lives more clearly.

Axel Wennhall
So you spoke a bit before about shame, and I reckon that is one of the sort of emotion, underlying emotions that can really trigger that threat sort of situation in life. So how could, how can mindful self-compassion help you deal with shame?

Chris Germer
So interestingly, if nothing else, self-compassion is an antidote to shame. Because what’s unique about shame is that it’s an attack on the self. You know, we say guilt is I did something wrong, shame is I am wrong. You know, guilt is I made a mistake, shame is I am a mistake. So what’s very common with shame is self-criticism, self-attacking. There are also other qualities closely associated with shame. One is feeling very isolated and alone, and sometimes even trying not to be in our own bodies. Some people in extreme shame, they also dissociate. So this quality of, in shame, of attacking oneself, also just trying to disappear. And another thing that happens with shame is we tend to ruminate. We go like, you know, why me? Why did this happen to me? There’s all this self-oriented thinking. So that’s shame. And self-compassion, as Kristen Neff defines it, has three key components. And the first one is self-kindness versus self-criticism. The second is common humanity or a sense of I’m not alone, just like me, you know. Common humanity versus isolation, which people feel so much in the moment of shame. And the third is mindfulness or kind of spacious awareness, rather than being caught up in our thoughts and ruminating. So these three components, self-kindness, common humanity, and mindfulness, are actually the opposite of three key components of shame. Namely self-criticism, isolation, and rumination. So even theoretically, what self-compassion does is it dismantles, you could say, the structure or the skeleton of shame. But what it also does, apropos this kind of threat to care, physiological shift that I mentioned before, is that self-criticism, isolation, and rumination, these are really variations on the threat response. If you think of fight, flight, freeze. Fight turned against the self is self-criticism. Flight turned against the self is isolation. Freeze turned against the self is rumination. So that threat state, fight, flight, freeze, is actually the opposite of the care state, which is self-kindness, common humanity, and mindfulness. So if nothing else, self-compassion really is an antidote to shame. Another interesting thing, Axel, is when the sense of self is under attack in shame, we need to, as it were, rescue the self. And there are different ways that we can feel good about ourselves. One of the most common ways is if we feel good in comparison to other people, like on a pecking order, you know, like, am I smarter, as smart or less smart than somebody else? And if we notice that we’re pretty low down on the ladder, then people sometimes try somehow or other to climb up the ladder a little bit in comparison to others. And this basically is not a very stable or effective way of getting self-esteem. But another way of getting self-esteem or self-worth is through inner kindness, by being warm to ourselves and understanding toward ourselves when things go wrong, when we suffer, when we fail, when we feel inadequate. So what self-compassion does is it actually strengthens our sense of self when it’s under attack, not by trying to climb up the ladder compared to other people, but through kindness toward ourselves. This is a whole new way of having self-worth, which is especially necessary in a moment of shame.

Axel Wennhall
What I love about this is that it’s also a practice. It’s a sort of a skill that we can develop. And in terms of working with shame, what suggestions would you have to anyone listening to this and feeling a lot of shame coming up and sort of hearing us discuss it? And it sounds pretty straightforward, but perhaps it isn’t that easy to implement.

Chris Germer
Yeah. So since self-compassion is an antidote to shame, actually anything that you do that is self-compassionate will alleviate shame. So this was my experience with loving kindness meditation. You know, I didn’t know I was struggling with shame. I just was really nice to myself because I was suffering so much from public speaking anxiety. And then, lo and behold, everything changed. And not only did the shame disappear, but I could actually see that shame was the problem. So in a general way, Axel, just practicing kindness toward the self will alleviate shame, you know. However, when a person is actually in the midst of shame and maybe even has the capacity. One of the things that makes shame so difficult is that it actually kind of wipes out the sense of self. There’s no observer there that can work with shame. You know, it’s easy to say, I’m set relatively easy to say I’m sad or I’m angry. It’s kind of hard to say, I feel shame. Because shame just hijacks or absorbs the observer that there isn’t an I that can say, I feel shame. And what we know from the mindfulness world is name it and you tame it. So what does it take to actually in a moment of shame to be able to say, ah, this is a moment of shame or I feel shame or I feel ashamed. This is actually the start of working with shame is the capacity to notice it. You know, when we talk about mindful self-compassion, the mindfulness part is knowing what you’re feeling while you’re feeling it. And the compassion part is kindness and understanding toward oneself in that moment. So in a moment of shame. We want, we need first to be able to say this is shame, but actually just to say this hurts or this is awful or, you know, I feel so much stress is even enough to begin to be kind to oneself. But if we can actually name the emotion like this is shame, then we can work with it. We can begin to work with it. So that’s the first step, Axel. The first step. The second step is common humanity, which is to recognize that shame is part of the human experience. Usually when we feel shame, we feel terribly isolated. But shame is part of the human experience. And when we are in the midst of shame, we might feel really, really alone. But we’re actually in that moment having a profoundly human experience. Shame is a universal human emotion. So to remind ourselves that this is part of being alive. That’s the first thing in terms of common humanity. And the second part is, and this is an amazing insight, which we can talk more about later. But this is when you look at shame through the eyes of compassion, what we discover is that we actually wouldn’t even feel shame if we didn’t wish to be loved. And shame is ultimately an innocent emotion because it comes from the wish to be loved. And all of us since birth want to be loved. We need to be loved. We couldn’t have survived as children if we weren’t loved. And even now as adults, we need each other in order to survive. The wish to be loved has been with us since birth, and it is running through our entire lives. Even in this moment, you and I wish to be loved. You know, we don’t usually think about this, but when we have a moment of shame, we actually, shame loses its grip when we can see in that moment that just as all beings wish to be loved, so do I in this moment also wish to be loved. When we can actually, excuse me, actually get to that deep soulful need or desire that emerges out of us at birth in the moment of shame. Our sense of awareness slips through the net of shame. In other words, we move from that sense of fear and dread that shame is when we remember, ah, I wouldn’t be feeling this if I didn’t, just like everybody else wish to be loved. When we drop into that, into awareness of that core wish to be loved, then actually the shame begins to dissipate. It begins to disappear a little bit because we’re now living in a more soulful and in a more compassionate and caring way. So this is also part of the common humanity, i.e. another aspect of self-compassion. One aspect of self-compassion in common humanity is that this is a universal human emotion and you’re not alone. And the second is we share the wish to be loved and we would not feel shame if we didn’t wish to be loved. Because shame actually means, shame is the fear that there is something wrong with us that would render us unlovable. So we slip through the net of shame when we can connect with that. And then the third aspect of self-compassion, as I mentioned before, is self-kindness. Once we can say, ah, this is a moment of shame or this hurts, we can recognize we’re not alone. Then we can be kind to ourselves. In other words, if we have a universal wish to be loved, and in a moment of shame we’re not feeling loved, the amazing thing is we can give ourselves that love that we need. We can give it to ourselves in that moment. And there are so many ways that we can give ourselves kindness. We can give ourselves kindness behaviorally, or in other words, there’s behavioral training, behavioral practice, there’s mental training, mental practice. So a simple behavioral practice is just to, if you feel shame in your body, you can kind of gently rub that part of your body that appears to be holding shame. Like maybe it’s your heart or your belly or your head, you know. And that actually, what happens is, is if you bring kindness to a part of your body that’s experiencing the emotion of shame, since emotions have a physical part and a mental part, by addressing the physical part directly through, you know, just stroking that part of your body, you actually change the emotion. It’s quite remarkable that way. So there are many behavioral ways you can be kind to yourself. You can just physically stroke your body, but you can also, if drinking tea is your thing, you can have a cup of tea, or you can, you know, call a friend, or you can go out and have exercise, or play with the dog, you know. Behaviorally or mental practice. Mental practice is like loving kindness practice. It means actually talking to yourself in a way that is truly kind, as you might talk to a friend who is in a similar situation, who would be caught in a similar dilemma, maybe feeling the emotion of shame. So that’s a lot there. I hope that was helpful in some way.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, definitely. One thing that comes to my mind when I hear this is sort of, this seems also sort of things you could bring to yourself in this time, in the Corona crisis, sort of how has the self-compassion practice helped you during this time?

Chris Germer
Yeah, so everybody is being affected in different ways by the coronavirus. I know that there are a lot of people who are suffering greatly, either because they’ve lost their jobs and they’re financially concerned, or they’re sick, or they’re frontline health workers. There’s a lot of stress going around. Some people suffer greatly because of the isolation, you know, and isolation is not natural for human beings. We are social creatures. And so when people are isolated, they get anxious, they get depressed. But you asked about me personally, you know, Axel, I’m an introvert. And I also have the good fortune right now of not having to worry about my job and money. I also have the privilege of having a really happy relationship with my wife. So, you know, I’m personally enjoying this time. I dread a little bit going back to real life, you know. And yeah, some people say, you know, if you have the privilege of not being sick or having to work and worrying about money, if those things are taken care of, which is pure privilege, then this is really nice opportunity to kind of slow down and, you know, appreciate the coming of spring and appreciate simpler things, you know. So in my view, right now, at least one third to one half of the planet is in an involuntary retreat. And when we’re in a retreat, just being with our minds in an unsupported way is usually not a happy place, you know. But when we have mind training practices, when we know how to work with the mind, with mindfulness and with compassion, this is actually a wonderful opportunity to practice more and also even to allow compassion and mindfulness to guide the day because it’s less structured, you know? So I’m enjoying it to be honest, but I’m also cognizant that this is, I have a privileged situation and that so many people are struggling in so many ways, mentally and physically.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, and now is really the time to start to practice if one haven’t done it because it’s, I can see it in myself, it’s so helpful. And another thing you said that sort of have came across me sort of that when the structure drops away, the inner voice that sort of has the the tendency to always want to perform or deliver, that voice is kind of active right now because there’s always something else to do. There’s always something to do a little bit more, add a little bit extra. So I’ve seen it in myself that the most compassion thing I need to do right now during this period is to allow myself to rest, to take the breaks that usually just happens more naturally. Because otherwise I sort of, the snagging voice in my head just keeps on coming and like, oh, you could do a little bit more or why aren’t you working right now? And you should add extra, extra, extra all the time. So yeah, that was a good reminder to myself.

Chris Germer
Yeah, I have the same inner voice, I just want to say, you know, and I also liked when you said, you know, when the usual structures drop away, you know, we don’t have to be here or go there or do this or do that. That makes us feel like we’re kind of being productive, right? But when we’re not structured in that one way, that way we can hear the inner voice saying, yeah, so are you getting a little lazy?

Axel Wennhall
It’s like, this is my voice now, that your voice is my voice and that’s the thing, right?

Chris Germer
Yeah. So are you able in that moment, Axel, to be aware of that voice in a tender way, also to have tenderness toward the part of you that might feel he’s not good enough if he’s not producing as we all, many of us do? What happens, if I may ask, after you notice that voice, you know, come on, get with it, get going, you know?

Axel Wennhall
Yeah.

Chris Germer
How do you relate to it? I think that might be helpful. I’d love to hear anyway.

Axel Wennhall
It’s really from time to time, to be honest. Sometimes that voice kind of takes the driver’s seat and I feel stressed, I feel anxious and I sort of becomes a bit more reactive. And then another kind of state to it is that I become aware of it, but I sort of, I don’t really open up to it. So I sort of, it’s there and I sort of, I’m against it in one way. I’m like, oh no, not this voice again. Like I know that it’s just a voice, but I’m sort of not really embracing and accepting it or loving it. And then the third state is the self-compassion state where I sort of, ah, all right, okay, this is kind of a, where I can see it for what it is, this kind of protective, that in one sense, perhaps just wants me to do well and wishes me well, to be safe and to be loved, as you mentioned before. So I go between those three states, but I’m so grateful that I have the third state that I know that it’s available. And what one way for me to get there is to really, and that is, I see that as the issue to sort of stop, rest, let everything be, and then sort of let it go and be compassionate and be kind to myself. So for example, today I was out running and then I, it’s quite cold here, but I actually went for a swim and like afterwards was just like, ah, okay, this was exactly what I needed. And that was my, it was compassion. I sort of just laughed out loud. It made me realize, yeah, that it’s so helpful and I really need to go to the third step more. It’s sort of, it reminded me that this is the right path. This is sort of like, do this more, don’t stress, like, it’s fine, relax.

Chris Germer
Beautiful, beautiful. Well, when we got on this call, I could see your radiant face. Now I know it’s because of the cold water. But anyhow, that too is an act of, that’s behavioral self-compassion. You know, what do I need now? You know, when we ask ourselves, the quintessential self-compassion question is, what do I need? You know, what do I need to be safe? What do I need to comfort myself, soothe myself, energize myself, motivate myself? Protect myself, provide for, what do I need? You know, that’s ultimately the self-compassion question. But what I was really, what I was, among many things you said, Axel, that I was appreciating was that to hear that voice, sometimes you can get swept away with it, sometimes you can step back. But you also said, you know, something like, you know, the voice has good motives. It’s trying to protect me. You know, the voice that says, oh, come on, get with it. Don’t, you know, don’t just hang around. Or, you know, you should really get some exercise. Or, you know, are you being lazy? That voice is actually trying to make us safe and support us, as you said, you know. Now, the difference between a critical voice and a compassionate voice is not necessarily the intention. Sometimes it is. Sometimes a critical voice is just harsh and has no good intentions. But often they both have good intentions, the critical voice and the compassionate voice. But the difference is, is that a compassionate voice is warmer. It’s the tone of the compassionate voice. The critical voice says, what’s the matter with you, Axel? You are, you know, being too lazy today. The compassionate voice says, oh, Axel, you need a break. I can see that. I love you. We maybe later on can get going, you know. What is it that you’d like to actually do? Let’s do that, you know. So they’re both motivating, but one in a kind of a harsh way and the other with lots of love and support, like a dear friend, you know. So when we can step back and see, yeah, the critical voice has my best interest in mind, that actually creates a little space for a compassionate, motivating voice, you know. And we’ve actually found with self-compassion that people who are self-compassion are actually way more motivated to achieve their goals. Their goals are just as high as people who are not self-compassionate. But self-compassionate people are more motivated to reach their goals because the inner voice that’s motivating them is warm and kind and supportive, like a good friend. And that’s energizing, that’s encouraging, that makes us want to do stuff, you know. Yeah. So the way the doorway, what opens us to that possibility is not to get in a tangle with the critical voice, but to actually see the good intentions behind the voice. But then perhaps saying, thank you very much. Let’s make some room now for a new voice, a voice which is a little bit more encouraging. That’s looking at my strengths and my goodness rather than my shortcomings. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
One thing that pops up when you sort of describe this is that also that the activity can come from this kind of more of a loving kind of place or more driven by fear. And sort of thank you. I can also see that in my own activity, that the quality of any kind of activity always gets so much more enjoyable and even better in the sense if you want to measure it in kind of deliverance or whatever, it gets better if there’s more of a, it comes from this loving place rather from the fear.

Chris Germer
Thank you. Yeah. Love versus fear, care versus fear. When we’re in a fear state, our perception contracts and our motivation goes down. Yeah, absolutely. Good point.

Axel Wennhall
You were addressing a little bit about the research that has been done by self-compassion, and I know it’s been a big boom in the last few years. What is the most relevant science or research to be known about this? And just one thing to add before that, for me, sort of the science about meta and loving kind of practice was really the motivator for me to give it a try. I was sort of a bit skeptical first, but when I read about it, it sort of seemed why not give it a try? So what have you seen in the research of self-compassion?

Chris Germer
So knowing the research does what you’ve described, it actually kind of disabuses us of our fears about self-compassion. So maybe I can say two things. First of all, the research, as you mentioned, is quite large. Right now, there are probably over 3,000 articles in the academic scientific literature on self-compassion and almost across the board. It shows that people who are high in self-compassion have greater sense of wellbeing and decreased anxiety, depression, stress, and shame. And it’s good for our health. It improves the immune system. It leads to healthy behaviors, and it’s also good for relationships. So basically, self-compassion is good for you. I think among all these articles, there might be two that suggested something otherwise, you know. And so you really have to wonder what exactly they were seeing, you know, in those particular articles. And, you know, but the, it’s just remarkable how self-compassion appears to be a common factor in psychological well-being and thriving. And lack of self-compassion is very closely related with just about every psychological disorder in the book. But what, apropos practice and what we need to know, what’s good to know from the research that will encourage us to practice is that there are, many of us have myth-givings that are actually myth-conceptions. Yeah. In other words, the word, the phrase, or the term self-compassion can make us uneasy, you know. Maybe the word self makes us uneasy, or even compassion makes us think, oh, we’re talking about weakness. But the problem with the idea of self-compassion, if people don’t fully understand what self-compassion is, is they think it’s going to strengthen or reify the sense of self. And the more rigid our sense of self, the more likely we are to suffer. But it’s not just in Buddhist psychology where this is true, but most people just have been trained not to focus on themselves, but to focus on others. So what we like to say is that let’s not call it self-compassion, let’s call it inner compassion. Inner compassion, outer compassion, that actually compassion is omnidirectional. It goes in all directions. And why would we want to systematically exclude ourselves from the circle of compassion? And this causes enormous harm to people that they are systematically denying themselves compassion and giving it to other people. And so what we’re doing in self-compassion is actually a very humble enterprise. We’re just including ourselves in the circle of compassion. And that’s actually less selfish. You know, there’s less self involved if we just let it go everywhere, including toward ourselves. But apropos of the research, Axel, there are probably five main myths that people have about self-compassion, which the research shows are myths. And one is this idea that it will lead to self-pity. In other words, poor me, you know, self-compassion, oh poor me, as if we’re going to be only thinking about ourselves. But the research actually shows that people who are high in self-compassion, they have more perspective on their problems. And they also are more likely to feel connected to human beings when they suffer. So actually, self-compassion is the opposite of self-pity. And then there are four other main myths. You know, one is weakness. Some people think if I practice self-compassion, I’m going to just kind of become weak. But one thing that all the research shows is that self-compassion is actually a powerful factor for resilience, emotional resilience. So for example, when they looked at veterans, military veterans in the United States from Iraq and Afghanistan, they found that whether or not people had post-traumatic stress disorder depended more on whether or not they had self-compassion than the severity of combat experience. What that means is people could have experienced terrible things in war, but with self-compassion, they could relate to themselves in a way that those traumas did not shatter their lives in the form of post-traumatic stress disorder. So this middle step, how we relate to our trauma, and in this case, in the form of self-compassion, is a powerful buffer that allows us to, as it were, cope or to respond in an effective way when things are difficult in our lives. So self-compassion is actually not a weakness, but it actually is a source of resilience and strength. So that’s the second myth. The third myth is that self-compassion is selfish. That if I practice self-compassion, I’m only going to be thinking about me. And when you ask the partners of people who are high in self-compassion, what’s the person like? They always say, oh, this person is cooperative, is less aggressive than others, is more compassionate toward me. And the research is quite clear that as people grow in self-compassion, they actually increase in compassion for others. You know, another concern is that it’s self-indulgent. In other words, if I’m self-compassionate, I’m just going to be, I’m going to have bad behaviors, you know, I’m just going to lie on the couch and watch television and eat bad food and so forth. And what we find is people are high in self-compassion. They do good things for themselves. Just like you were describing, you know, taking a swim in cold water and how refreshing it was. Jumping in the cold water might have been a bit of a shock, but you knew that you’d feel great afterwards. So you did it. People who are high in self-compassion, they do stuff like that. They’re actually able to balance the short-term benefit with the long-term benefit, and they usually choose the long-term benefit, you know. So therefore, it’s not self-indulgence. You’re not just going to drink, you know, alcohol all the time because I want to. They’re actually, the research shows people are high in self-compassion. They drink less, they eat better, they exercise more, they practice safe sex, they take better care of themselves, you know. And then the fifth myth is that it’s demotivating. It will make us less likely to achieve our goals. And as I mentioned earlier, people who are high in self-compassion have as high goals as people who are low in self-compassion, but they’re more motivated to get to reach their goals. And they’re more motivated because the inner voice is encouraging and not critical. An encouraging voice is energizing. And therefore, actually people who are high in self-compassion are not demotivated, they are more motivated. And so knowing these things, people can really engage in the practice, I think with confidence. There’s a large research base now to show that this is a good thing.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, one thing that has been present and occurring for me this week and also leading up to our talk is another misconception. And it’s the misconception I think many of us face sometimes. And that is the misconception that we won’t have any problems or suffer at all. And that single misconception gives a lot of the suffering actually I’ve been witnessing this week. And I came across the story of when the Buddha met a farmer who had 53 problems and he wanted Buddha to help him get rid of them. Whereas the Buddha replied that he couldn’t do anything about the 53 problems, but he could help the farmer with the 54. And that is that we won’t have the other 53 problems. And there was another thing that I read in your work and that was that the goal of the practice is to become a compassionate mess. And it sort of really resonated with me. It’s sort of like, ah, that felt compassionate. I don’t have to be perfect. I don’t have to be any better. I can just let myself be exactly as I am. And that is, yeah, it was just beautiful reading that. I love it.

Chris Germer
Well, I’m just so appreciating that you kind of got that point because that is the most essential point of self-compassion training. And as you were sharing just now that insight, you had the biggest smile since we started this conversation. You totally get it, you know. And yeah, you know, now in the time of the COVID-19 pandemic, somebody wrote a blog about self-compassion that said, I’m tired of trying to be positive. This sucks. This is the title of her blog about self-compassion. And she got it too, you know, what self-compassion is, is a way of holding the whole catastrophe of being a human being, you know, maybe to paraphrase John Cabot’s in this case. But it’s not just holding the catastrophe of life. It’s holding the catastrophe that we are, you know, in other words, we will remain human, which means till the day we die, we’re going to suffer at times, we’re going to be confused. And, you know, basically, we’re going to be human till the very end. And to wish it were otherwise, as you said, just creates so many problems. So the invitation of self-compassion is radical self-acceptance. It’s throwing out kind of the red carpet to who we are already, you know? In other words, the Axel that’s on this call right now and the Chris that’s on this call right now. And when we think like this, then there’s a little voice often in the back of our minds that says, Oh, oh, oh, oh, wait a second, wait a second. This is not good enough. You know, being Chris or being Axel is not good enough. You know, I need to improve. And so we’re not saying that’s not so, but what we’re saying is, how do we improve? So what self-compassion does is basically says, let’s put the whole self-improvement agenda on the foundation of radical acceptance. And there’s a famous psychologist, Carl Rogers, who said the curious paradox is the more I accept myself just as I am, the more I can change. The more I accept myself just as I am, that means just like this in all my imperfections and just like this. What is it like to accept myself just like this? This is actually really radical and very uncommon, because usually the moment we feel bad about ourselves or something goes wrong in our lives, immediately we launch into fixing it. What would it be like if in that moment we just stopped a second, we were able to step back and see ourselves in a spacious way and to hold ourselves in a loving way and then ask ourselves, What do you need? What do you want? And then the whole change agenda, it will still happen. There’ll be a change agenda, but it’s on the foundation of acceptance. And that is so much more effective and so much more pleasant, not only to us, but to others. That’s the radical invitation of self-compassion. Thank you for naming that. There is nothing more important in this old field.

Axel Wennhall
So we’re going to practicing self-compassion here with you just in a bit. But before that, we have a part in the podcast called Five Quick Questions. So just what pops up in your mind. So are you ready, Chris? All right. So what makes you present?

Chris Germer
Present? Oh, delight and suffering. The pings, you know, like, ooh.

Axel Wennhall
If you had to recommend one book about meditation, which one would it be?

Chris Germer
Oh my, there’s so many great books about meditation. But I can tell you one of the books that has really inspired me for years and years is a book called I Am That, I Am That by Nizar Gadatta Maharaj. He’s a kind of teacher in the Ramana Maharishi Yad Vaita tradition. It’s about awareness, wisdom, compassion. Great book.

Axel Wennhall
I’ll add that to my book list. What are you grateful for right now?

Chris Germer
Oh, you and Gustav, the producer of this show and the opportunity to connect about things that are dear to me and hopefully to others.

Axel Wennhall
When was the last time you cried?

Chris Germer
Oh, probably yesterday. Yesterday, I was connecting with a friend who feels trying to do his best in his work on behalf of others in the COVID situation and he was being misunderstood. So not only was he exhausted, but he was misunderstood and it was heartbreaking, actually. You know, the idea that no good deed goes unpunished. But that too is part of life, you know, it’s not his fault. It’s not anybody’s fault. It’s part of the human experience.

Axel Wennhall
Okay. Last question. What’s the best advice you got?

Chris Germer
Be here now.

Axel Wennhall
Brilliant. Brilliant. Well done, Chris. All right. So now I’m going to hand over the mic to you. So we thought of for meditation. Could you please first tell us what we’re going to what we’re going to do?

Chris Germer
Yeah. So this practice is called Giving and Receiving Compassion. And it’s the third of three core meditations in the Mindful Self-Compassion Program. And it is a way of practicing self-compassion that keeps us connected to others. But allows us not to forget ourselves. So some people would call this meditation caring for others without losing ourselves. And it uses the breath. So I’d like to invite everybody to find a comfortable position to close your eyes partially or fully. And knowing that you’ve been listening for so long, allowing your awareness to drop into your body. To feel the sensations in the body right now. And then noticing the physical sensation of the body breathing. Seeing if you can notice the sensation of breathing in and breathing out. And then focusing on the in-breath for a while. And seeing if you can notice how each in-breath subtly nourishes and energizes the body. Seeing if you can notice there’s a little lift with every in-breath. And now for the sake of this meditation, just allowing every in-breath to be for you. In for me. And as you breathe in, even if you wish breathing in some quality that you might need now. Maybe you need some love, some compassion, some strength. Some warmth, some light, some peace. Whatever it may be. Letting the in-breath be for you. And breathe in whatever you need right now in your life. Right now in this moment. And now gently release the awareness on the in-breath and feel what it’s like to breathe out. Feel the sense of exhalation. And notice how the body is subtly relaxing with every out breath. Feeling the ease of every exhalation, one after another. And now for the sake of this meditation. Allowing the ease of exhalation to be directed toward one or more people in your life. Or even all beings, doesn’t matter. But sending ease out with every out-breath to others. Sending well-being, or if you wish, you could send love or warmth or kindness. Allowing your out-breath to be a gift for others. And now bring your awareness to both the sensation of breathing in and the sensation of breathing out. In for me. And out for you. Feeling the gentle rhythm of your breathing, a natural rhythm. Just like waves. As you breathe in, the waves are drawing in. As you breathe out, the waves are going out. Allowing yourself to be part of this natural rhythm. Allowing yourself to be part of an ocean. Feeling. Quite naturally your body breathing in for you. Quite naturally out for another. Flowing in, flowing out. If you like, even envisioning that you are an ocean of compassion. That compassion is everywhere. And that compassion is flowing in with the in-breath. And flowing out with the out-breath. Flowing out to a particular person or persons. Or to all beings. Feeling the rhythm. Goodness in, goodness out. Compassion in. Compassion out. Ocean of compassion. And now beginning to release the practice. Knowing that you can return to it anytime. You can practice. Giving and receiving compassion in meditation, or you can do it when you’re interacting with a friend or a child. Anyone. Anytime, night or day, you can breathe in for yourself.

Okänd
And out for another.

Chris Germer
Allowing yourself to be part of the endless flow of compassion. In for me. And out for you. And then when you’re ready to slowly open your eyes.

Axel Wennhall
Ah. Thank you.

Chris Germer
Thank you, Axel.

Axel Wennhall
One thing that I can really feel right now is that compassion feels good. It’s really good. It has a very nice and warm feeling tone to it. It’s a nice place to be at. This ocean of compassion.

Chris Germer
Thank you. There’s one instruction I forgot to give, which I think is helpful when we’re in daily life. And that is that we can really work with the ratio of in for me and out for you in a way that’s just right for us. So sometimes we’re just exhausted and we just need to breathe in for ourselves, you know, 10 times, 20 times, 100 times, and then breathe out once for another person. Or maybe your heart is just breaking for other people’s pain and you can just breathe in one for yourself and 10 out for another person, you know. But it’s really helpful in this practice to choose a ratio that’s just right for you. To ask yourself, what do I need? And to let it be and to then give yourself what you need.

Okänd
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
That’s really one thing I’m going to take with me from our conversation. The question, what do I need? It’s to remind myself to keep asking that question. It’s such an important one. Before we say goodbye, do you have any recommendation or any guests that you would like to listen to in the podcast, Meditera Mera?

Chris Germer
Any recommendations for whom you could interview?

Axel Wennhall
Yeah.

Chris Germer
Oh, my goodness. There are just so many amazing people out there who I would love to hear speak more, you know, in the field of loving kindness and compassion. Three of my favorite teachers are Jack Kornfield, Sharon Salzburg, and Tara Brock. And they’re all, the three of them are just so eloquent and so clear. So, but they’re also so busy. So, people are lucky if they get a little bit of their time. Yeah. If you’re interested in research on loving kindness meditation, Barbara Fredriksen, people don’t hear from her too much, but she’s done a lot of really good research on loving kindness meditation. So that’s interesting if you want to do a more, you know, science based thing, but she also has a practice.

Axel Wennhall
Thank you. Thank you. So, we were supposed to meet up in Stockholm just a week ago, but I heard that, is your plan now, if situation change, to come to Sweden in November or?

Chris Germer
I hope so.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah.

Chris Germer
Yeah. I mean, none of us really knows how this is going to pan out, but I hope so. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
It would be great to meet you in real life as well.

Chris Germer
Oh, I would love that. Yeah. Axel. Gustav too, if he’s not on some island somewhere.

Axel Wennhall
All right. Thank you so much for taking this time. And yeah, talking about self-compassion and your own journey, it’s been really nice to connect and learn from you. So, thank you. Thank you.

Chris Germer
It’s been really great doing it as well. And I would like to just give a shout out before we’re done to Kristen Neff, whom I met in 2008, and we’ve been closely collaborating on all these things together since then. And if you can interview her, I think that would also be a treat. So, thank you guys. And thanks for all you’re doing. Sharing is important practices with Swedish people and the rest of the world.

Axel Wennhall
All right. Bye. Stay well.

Chris Germer
Bye-bye.

Axel Wennhall
Thank you for listening to this episode of the podcast Meditera Mera. We hope you have been inspired by our conversation and by Chris’ Meditation. If this was the first time you listened to the podcast, it’s done by Gustav and me, and together we run Breathe In, meditation and adventure retreats. With the help of meditation, nature, and adventure, our aim is to discover the present moment, both on our trips, but also when we get back home. Due to the current situation worldwide, we have been forced to cancel our spring retreats, but hopefully we will be back in August-September again with a weekend retreat just outside Stockholm. You can stay updated on our Instagram, Breathe In Travels, or find more information on our website, breathein.se. And if you have any suggestions on inspiring guests or any topic you would like to listen to, please email us at hi@breathein.se. And if you like this episode, please share it to your friends so we can all inspire even more people to meditate and to live present lives and to be kinder to ourselves. And if there’s something that we will bring with us from our conversation with Chris, it is that the feeling of shame comes from the feeling of wanting to be loved and also to ask yourself, what do you need right now? Okay, take care and stay healthy out there.