This is a transcript from our podcast episode with Alexis Santos about meditation and coming home.

Axel Wennhall
Welcome to a new episode of the Swedish podcast “Meditera Mera”, which means “Meditate more”, with me, Axel Wennhall. This is a podcast made by the Swedish meditation app Mindfully. And this is our first episode in a while, and it’s great to be back. We will continue to speak with some of the world’s most interesting voices in how meditation can help us live a more awake, compassionate and meaningful life. In this episode, we have added a small new thing. Now you can hear me summarize my insights from the conversation in the epilogue, so stay tuned right until the end. And now, it’s time for our next guest that I met here in Stockholm, Sweden, Alexis Santos. Alexis Santos is a meditation teacher, and he has practiced Insight meditation since 2001. He has been a long-time student of Sayadaw U Tejaniya, including several years of training as a Buddhist monk under his guidance. Alexis also completed the four-year teacher training program through Insight Meditation Society and Spirit Rock. Alexis’s teaching emphasizes knowing the mind through a natural and relaxed continuity.

Axel Wennhall
Alexis also teaches meditation retreats internationally, and he is a featured teacher in the Happier Meditation app. In this episode, we speak about natural awareness, the feeling of coming home, the habits of our minds, skillful vs unskillful actions, the super power of saying sorry, wise understanding and wise attitude, and why Alexis and I practice. Here’s Alexis Santos. It’s great to meet you, Alexis.

Alexis Santos
Likewise, Axel. Good to be with you.

Axel Wennhall
We are at Magdalena and Mats, our common friend’s home, sitting here in their living room. And yeah, I think I’ve heard about you, it must be five years ago. I think I heard about you through the 10% Happier app, which is now named Happier, I think. You met Dan Harris. So I think that was the first time I kind of came in contact with you. And then Magdalena, who’s now a good friend, she kind of advised me to meet you. And so I’ve been having the fortune to listen to some of your Dhamma talks. And it seems like we share a lot of interest that I want to speak to you about today, about this kind of more natural awareness and more effortless way to practice.

Alexis Santos
Yeah, great.

Axel Wennhall
But usually we start our talks with just a short landing meditation. And I’ve been having quite a hectic morning. I went up at 6 a.m. In the morning with my kids and we went to the preschool and I had even had a meeting before I met you. So for me, I feel I need some grounding. So if you’re listening to this, I would also like to invite you to join us in this short meditation. And if you have the possibility to physically stop while you’re listening to this, if you’re out walking, for example, see if you can give yourself that permission to stop for two minutes. And we are sitting here and I’m sitting in a chair and you’re sitting in the sofa.

Alexis Santos
So comfortable.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, we’re both comfortable. You don’t have to close your eyes. But if that’s your preferred way to meditate, you can do that.

Axel Wennhall
And just connect with your natural breath, the breath that has been going on even before you noticed it. So just feel one of your breath from the inhale to the exhale.

Axel Wennhall
And then bring your attention to the parts of your body that is connected towards the earth, the floor, the sofa or couch, whatever you are sitting or standing. On.

Axel Wennhall
Might feel heaviness, pressure, tingling.

Axel Wennhall
And then just check in with yourself and see if you have any expectations or if your mind is leaning towards something, resisting something.

Axel Wennhall
And see if it’s possible to relax a bit more by just allowing everything to be as it is.

Axel Wennhall
Being with it all.

Axel Wennhall
While you’re also aware of your body connected. Grounded. And then you can again just. Feel one of your breath moving in and moving out.

Axel Wennhall
Gently opening your eyes if you had them closed. And just simply relax. Into this open. Allowing aware. Dimension of. Of you, you could say.

Axel Wennhall
Hey.

Alexis Santos
Hey, thank you. It was very lovely.

Axel Wennhall
It was well needed for myself today.

Alexis Santos
It’s always, always needed. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
This is the first time we meet and I’m a bit curious, how did you come in contact with meditation? Where were you in your life?

Alexis Santos
Ah, wow. I say wow just because trying to pick out the cause of something as important as discovering, you know, practice like meditation, there’s often so many conditions that go into it. So I can almost go back, but I don’t think you wanted me to go back to the time of my birth. But I was in medical school. I’d say that was really the big turning point where I was deciding kind of the direction of my life. And there were, there was just, there was a lot of stress and anxiety building at that time and kind of felt like things weren’t quite aligning in my life the way I wanted them to. I didn’t know about, you know, the various practices that are popular now in terms of, it’s almost like every corner where you turn, there’s another sign for yoga or mindfulness. Didn’t feel that way to me at the time. Some 25 years ago, even more than that, maybe almost 30 years now. And so when I decided to take, you know, to withdraw and really begin a search. And so I was in India, had met up with my two brothers who had also stepped away from traditional kind of pursuits.

Alexis Santos
So my parents were not thrilled about what we were doing. I think at that time they felt maybe they had failed. It didn’t feel like that to us. Felt like, you know, how brave it was for us to step out into the unknown and to explore. So it was in, it was in, well, traveling around in India that I first really became acquainted with meditation practice. And I did my first meditation retreat, a 10 day retreat in the, what’s called the Goenka tradition, which I know you’re very familiar with. And that’s where I got started during that retreat. But there were a lot of moments early on that I felt once I began practicing, I thought, Oh, this somehow was like a magnet pulling me in this direction. Felt like sooner or later I was going to come into contact with these teachings or with these practices. And so I, in a way, felt like I was, I was coming home rather than going somewhere far away when I really began to practice.

Axel Wennhall
Did you have that experience of coming home during the retreat or even before that?

Alexis Santos
Certainly during the retreat, I remember the first moments of being guided to watch my breath. That was something that, strangely, I don’t know how many of us do this, but as when I was younger, as a kid, I would be sometimes sitting in the car watching the dotted lines pass on the road as my mom or dad was driving. And there was something that my mind naturally was doing in terms of paying attention and being curious about. I didn’t even have the thought at times, How long will it be until I stop observing my breath? Because I thought there was something odd that I was observing my breath. So there was a familiarity that I had with my own body and my body and mind processes, but it was never acknowledged as something that we could use. And I think for a lot of us, it’s natural for, I think, a child to know something about themselves, to know what they’re experiencing. And yet it’s so easy to have that be somehow invalidated, that it’s not really what life is about, where we have to behave correctly and get the job done and do all the things we need to do and act correctly and be seen in a certain way.

Alexis Santos
But to actually acknowledge our internal experience, that doesn’t come that often. I mean, I think it is happening more now. So when that was first encouraged, I thought, wait, this couldn’t be. When I was hearing those instructions, I thought, wow, this is so interesting. I knew this at one point. So yeah, so in some ways, I mean, there was that coming home in that retreat. I’d say a deeper coming home happened a few years later when I met the teacher that really I studied with for years, Sayadaw U Tejaniya. I’d say that’s another level of where I really felt like, oh, this, yes, this is how I want to be using my mind, my body, really be how I want to be understanding what the practice is about. And I think that’s when I first began this sort of search, I really did not know what it was I was looking for. And when I really landed in the Dhamma, these teachings with Sayadaw U Tejaniya, that felt like a home. I felt, yes, this feels really natural to me.

Axel Wennhall
It sounds like you came in contact with some deep values that you had. What’s coming home for you? I think many who’s listening to this will recognize the feeling of coming home. But coming home might be different for all of us. Like it’s a sense feeling. It’s this kind of like, ah, this sighing out, like, oh, this, I feel myself, I feel like myself, I feel content, I feel happy. But what were the kind of values that you had in your connection with your teacher that you wanted to bring forth and live with?

Alexis Santos
Yeah, I mean, I’d say in some ways, the basic message was, without it being said explicitly, like outright, but the basic message was that you matter. Your experience matters. Your feelings matter. Whatever is happening for you matters because that’s reality. That is what’s here. And it’s what allows us to grow these really amazing qualities of awareness, of wisdom, of compassion, of loving kindness. And so we don’t need to kind of push ourselves into some strict discipline to then break through. In fact, the very experience that we’re having at any moment is the vehicle for another moment of awareness, of softening into the present moment, of simply acknowledging what’s happening. And so as much as I’m really appreciative and so grateful for that first retreat, because something unfolded for me on that retreat that has stayed alive for me. I mean, it was so clear these practices are something I want to continue doing until, you know, my last breath. It’s like, yes, this is to be awake and to be knowing and to be cultivating the mind and heart.

Alexis Santos
Wow, I didn’t know this was possible in this life. Because before that it was just a random walk. What do I bounce into? What pushes me that way? What goes one way or another? It was all random. Once we have some understanding about the nature of the mind, the nature of this experience as human beings, then we can start to more skillfully navigate. And it’s not up to choice. It’s not random at that point. We actually can apply our energy in a way that is what’s often described in the Dhamma as onward leading. It leads onward to some greater ease, greater clarity or some wisdom. And those are real results, right? So then, whatever the life does bring, we actually learn how to be with it, because we will be eventually. If we live a long enough life, we will be with plenty of suffering, you know, losing loved ones, not working out the way we wanted to, or family members getting ill. And so many things we will encounter. And we really can see that how we are with it is more and more kind of where our freedom lies. There are different ways to be with the very same loss and confusion.

Alexis Santos
There’s different ways that we can be with any experience. So once we understand that, then we know there’s a practice to do. And last thing I’ll just say about this, just one more thing is, you know, in that first retreat I did in India, that got me really kind of going on the retreat. In practice, I found that I wasn’t yet able to, because of the style, it was a very directed pointing the attention at objects. I wasn’t yet able to simply include more and more of my whole experience, that whatever was happening in the present moment was something that was worthy of knowing. And not only worthy of knowing, it was also available for the practice to continue, rather than it being distractions or obstacles or something I needed to calm down, sound I needed to get rid of. That once the view and the attitude changed, every experience became a support rather than an obstacle. And that’s something that this teacher in Burma offered me. And he said, you have good awareness, but you no longer need to direct it so much.

Alexis Santos
Now, open that up. Open it up and see what else you can notice. And from those very simple encouragements of recognizing more, opening more, that’s in a way what kind of unlocked and released, almost like a dam that was blocking a lot of stored emotions and memories. It was as if I was trying to do something with my practice without actually attending to what was right here. And so with those very simple encouragements of just allowing and noticing, I spent like, I think, a couple of weeks every time I kind of went back into the hall and just sat there thoughtfully, just tears streaming down, of really being relieved of finally, as we were saying before, like arriving home. It was okay. Whatever I was experiencing was okay to be experiencing. Whatever emotion, however busy the mind was, whatever memories were popping up, all of that was okay. And that was an enormous shift in my practice. It felt like I was finally in line with my own experience. Wasn’t overriding, I wasn’t bypassing, I wasn’t ignoring.

Alexis Santos
There was simply being with the experience and that’s why it felt like a coming home.

Axel Wennhall
You said something like softening into presence and I think that’s such a key thing because there is a big difference between striving or concentrating or focusing to be here rather than relaxing and realizing that something within us is always here, already here. And can we relax into that state that it’s just naturally open, naturally curious, naturally allowing. So I think I have a quite similar background to you, even though my first introduction was. I’m starting to realize more and more that my first introduction to meditation was so clear. It was really about experiencing the present moment, no striving for any future states, like this is it. And as you pointed out that the first awakening experience was really this insight into understanding that it is possible to train the mind, it’s possible to relate in a different way. I remember I was so fascinated when I discovered that I can actually cultivate kindness. It’s not something you say like be kind to, like it’s something you can actually practice. And I was so fascinated about that.

Axel Wennhall
And I think it’s interesting to hear your view on this because you have to have that experience in order to also become motivated to practice. And if you don’t have that experience, I understand the skepticism because you don’t train your mind, you don’t practice cultivating awareness and loving kindness and compassion in school, for example. Whereas when it comes to our physical health, we learn from a young age that, oh well, if you do push-ups or if you go out running, you will be faster and you will be stronger. So what’s your kind of, when you meet someone who hasn’t had that awakening experience, what do you say to them? What do you think is the best way to not learn?

Alexis Santos
How to convert them? Yeah, but to show them what’s possible for them. Yeah, everyone’s path, you know, is going to unfold in the process that is lawful, you know. And so, I was joking about converting because of course we would love to convince people that we love. And I tried this early on with, you know, with my.

Axel Wennhall
You too?

Alexis Santos
Loved ones, of course. Because you, you know, you experience the change, you think, wow, I want everyone to know this. And I’m sure if I had met me a little bit earlier before, you know, if the two, before me and the after me had met, they would have argued, you know. They wouldn’t have gotten, they wouldn’t have agreed because we always need to be, you know, in line with what is currently available. What does happen when someone tries to notice the present moment in a more continuous way, one of the first insights that we have is that this mind is not actually in our control. So we recognize just by the very fact that it’s difficult to maintain a continuity of awareness, staying with the breath, for example, or feeling the body. Just in that observation that the mind wanders a lot, we begin to recognize there’s a mind. And so when I was in, you know, again, when I was back in med school, if I had been asked, where is the mind? I would have been pointing to, you know, the head. Like when I was doing the anatomy studies and looking at the body, and when someone the mind is here and pointed to the brain.

Alexis Santos
I didn’t, you know, I didn’t have words for the mind. And then we say, where is the mind? You know, where is the mind? And in the Dharma, you know, the teachings, the way the Buddha says it is like the mind has no shape. It has no location, has no color. And that’s confusing because we are very object oriented. But once you begin to pay attention and to hear these kinds of instructions, then we realize most of what we experience, so much of what we experience is not some object, but is the activity of the mind. Our moods, our emotions, our thoughts, our beliefs, kindness, grumpiness, you know, excited, not excited, disappointed, I don’t belong, I’m the worst, I’m the best. All these energies are the activities of the mind. And you know, what these particular practices do, and this is our inheritance from the Buddha, right, having done this work, was he looked into the mind and he said, here are these particular qualities. And when these qualities are developed, they lead to your well-being, they lead to others well-being, and they lead to the well-being of both.

Alexis Santos
And there are these other qualities that when they go unnoticed, they tend to develop these habits, these deep grooves in the mind, like canyons in the mind. And when those continue to operate kind of in the shadows, either in the shadows or just outright, they create distress, anxiety, a burden for one’s own heart, for the heart and mind of the other, and for both. And just by knowing that, and by beginning to observe it, we can start to see what is it that feels beneficial. We might notice how awareness and some ability to step back and observe how that brings some benefit, and how a mind that is caught in a lot of views and a lot of anger and a lot of resistance, how that creates struggle, right? And then views of the stories of I and me, how that tends to get us more caught up and feeling more judgmental, either on ourselves or others. So by just observing that, right? I always like to give that example of, we don’t have to do a lot to notice that when we put our hand on the hot stove, just a moment of knowing and attention knows that burns, and the wisdom will learn something, Oh, that burns. So it’s the same way with the mind.

Alexis Santos
If we pay attention, we can start to notice what are those things that burden and burn the mind, and what are those things that are actually helpful? And it’s very lawful, and we can see for ourselves. That’s one of the descriptions of the Dhamma is, we get to see, test it out, try and see. That’s why, you know, trying to convince someone and convert them is not possible. But if they’re interested enough, you know, to try it out, just the very trying to pay attention, which doesn’t sound hard to do, of five breaths without losing attention, or losing connection with it, that can spark an interest.

Okänd
Oh, wow.

Alexis Santos
Am I responsible for my mind? Do I own it? Or is the mind a set of processes that have their own momentum? And then we can start to understand how to put in the skillful ingredients or intentions. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
As you mentioned now, the difference between skillful and unskillful. And I just love that word skillful and unskillful because it takes away also the judgments from it, from being good or bad. It reminds me of, okay, skillful leads to something that is beneficial, and unskillful to some of something that’s unbeneficial.

Alexis Santos
Right.

Axel Wennhall
Rather than having the judgmental look at it as good or bad. They both exist.

Alexis Santos
Right.

Axel Wennhall
And I think this is also very interesting in terms of the awakening to see that we can start to cultivate more skillful actions in our lives. And also see, I think, another kind of, how to put it, another kind of feedback that we can get is when we start to do more skillful actions for ourselves, but also for others. And how that feels for us.

Alexis Santos
Yeah. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Because it is, ultimately, it’s going to feel good for you to be nice to other people.

Alexis Santos
Right.

Axel Wennhall
So we experience it for ourselves, the generosity or the kindness or the just the small things like saying hi to the bus driver.

Alexis Santos
Right.

Axel Wennhall
And like opening up a door and like there’s some kind of just this kind of feeling of it’s actually a feeling of coming home.

Alexis Santos
Yeah. Yeah. In that moment. Yeah, we can say, I mean, that’s part of the beauty of the dhamma, the lawfulness. Well, part of the beauty of the dhamma is this lawfulness, that which is skillful, is wholesome, feels good. And then the other side we could look at, well, anytime we’re feeling contracted, you know, we don’t, we kind of say we get on the bus and we’re just kind of in a grumpy mood and we can feel that contraction. The feedback either from the mind or from the heart or the body, that kind of tension gripping, you know, in the language of the Pali language, dukkha, some kind of discontent is the feedback that we can learn from. And again, it’s not wrong. It’s just to know that there’s some state of mind that is resisting, is closed, is hard, is stuck on some, you know, me versus you idea. And those feedback, that little bit of feedback can guide our whole path. Because it becomes so interesting to see how we shift from being stuck in something that feels hard and rigid to a moment either the body softening again or the mind opening a little bit.

Alexis Santos
And this moment of generosity of, Hi, how’s it going? And feeling the goodness of that. And if we’re not able to do that, simply noticing, you know, that the negative state is enough. Just noticing. Because it is very different being caught in the negative and there being the negative but with some noticing, some allowing of the grumpiness. Because oftentimes we can’t just change because we notice it, but we can appreciate that we’re noticing it and know that it’s different. A moment, a dropping in a moment of awareness of what’s happening is now we have a different thing. We have what’s happening and we have the awareness and the knowing. And that awareness and knowing often brings in with it maybe some patience, some understanding, some kindness, and now you have a very different experience. And that often goes unnoticed when we’re newer to practice. We simply notice that we feel a little bit stuck and grumpy, and then we start judging that more. And that’s just a habit of the negative, aversive mind. The reactive mind is, it gets caught in that cycle. To continue to blame ourselves for being the way we are, but that’s just what the mind is in the current state. That’s what it’s doing.

Alexis Santos
But how do we practice with it? How do we meet this particular moment?

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, it’s such a key thing you said there. I’ve seen it in myself and I’ve seen it in others. There’s just so easy to fall into this misconception that when we say like, oh, you feel at home when you smile at the bus driver, but the feeling of being at home can also be there when you are angry or when you’re grumpy in that, as you mentioned, in that allowance, in seeing it and like, ah, I’m here right now. Okay. And in that kind of acceptance, allowing and seeing it clearly, you’re not identified anymore with the emotion.

Alexis Santos
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it sort of reminds me of one of my favorite things about having studied with this teacher in Burma Sayadaw U Tejaniy, is that he would often, I could see this, that if you kind of came in to report to him about your practice and you were really a little bit like excited, and feeling like you were doing an amazing job in your practice, he would often feel a little bit skeptical. Like he could see some sort of self pride. But if you came in and were reporting what you were noticing, how much your mind was judging and craving and desiring, and all these, we call them afflictions, the things that make our mind feel burdened, he would get so interested. And would actually often get even more playful, because he really understood how easy it is for us to judge those energies as being wrong. When in fact, this is exactly how we learn, just to get interested, just to get interested and curious. Because my habit for so many years was to try and get everything right. I still have it.

Alexis Santos
And it’s such a burden to always be right, to always be good, rather than being honest, right, and be, being with things as they are, but then learning. And it’s hard to learn if we’re constantly trying to fix or cover over what’s happening. And it doesn’t mean things won’t get better. Things do. Of course, the mind will change, you know, and grow, and insights will happen. But it happens because we are learning from nature, the nature of this moment, the nature of the mind, whatever is happening, we learn from it. And that takes so much pressure off to get anything right. You know, and I see it as a Dharma teacher on teaching, leading retreats, almost everyone, we all show up with this desire to do it right. Even though all the messages are, you don’t have to do anything right here, you get to be. And even then, the habits are so strong. So this takes some time to really allow to trust. It’s okay. It’s okay to be just as we are. Really okay. And that message, I probably said to myself, I don’t know how many millions of times, it’s okay.

Alexis Santos
Nothing needs to change. It’s okay. These feelings are okay. These crazy thoughts I’m having, they’re okay. Okay. It’s just what’s happening. It’s the nature of this moment. Right? And that view, the view, this sort of wise, kind view, slowly becomes the foundation of our practice. How to meet any experience as it’s happening, to be open to it, to be available, to meet it with some awareness and kindness. And then it feels like, you know, it’s always available. Because we don’t have to be calm to be practicing. We don’t have to be peaceful. We can be exactly as we are, and be bringing in, right, the practice into that moment. And that opens up the possibility of practicing in the midst of this world, which as we know, is not perfect. And family life is not perfect. And living alone is not perfect. And this is the nature of experience, right? But it means that we can be with it increasingly in ways that are skillful, right? That are beneficial. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
And it’s what came to my mind now when you were talking, is this, I also seen it myself, this comparison that when we kind of start to cultivate awareness and these practices, we will experience more freedom, a sense of ease and peace and love.

Alexis Santos
Right.

Axel Wennhall
Which in my own experience has been the mistake that happens, the innocent mistakes that happens with my practice, and I think this is a very common thing for all of us humans, is to kind of compare that when the conditions are that, to other conditions when it’s more hard in life. Yeah. When there is more resistance. So for example, spending the week, the weekend with my kids, so many different feelings and they are so intense. It’s from like boredom, like it’s only 8.30 in the morning. Come on, I’ve been up three hours. And it is this kind of super stress when both are crying at the same time. And then there’s also this kind of immense love and gratitude for them when I get a hug.

Alexis Santos
Right, right.

Axel Wennhall
But it’s interesting to see even though I think I’ve said, those who listen to this podcast and at the wrap, I said like, allow everything to be as it is like also a million times. And then, but when I still when I experience those more difficult or painful feelings, it’s like there is a resistance there.

Alexis Santos
Yeah, yeah. That’s the habit of the mind. And it’s really good to notice it. That’s how in some ways that’s what we need to do. And that takes a lot of practice to be that honest. We might know something about the dhamma. I know, I think I know most everything I need to know about the dhamma. But does it mean that my mind is perfect at like all times? Like, no. So it’s like, you know, that we have one level is described, it’s sort of like an intellectual understanding of the dhamma. But for it to really reach that experiential insight level, that takes a lot of seeing, a lot of moments. Right. And to be very honest and to know, yeah, wow, the mind really still does think it’s better. But it does feel better. You know, when my kids are hugging me versus, you know, giving me an impossible time.

Axel Wennhall
It does. But there is this second layer, this that with the resistance that we are definitely adding to the experience, which is not helpful. It’s not skillful. The resistance of having the feelings of, for example, boredom and then like, I shouldn’t have this feeling. Right. I know better.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
That kind of judgmental voice in the head and believing in it. It’s interesting to see. And usually in the moment, because it can be so intense, it’s harder for me to kind of step out of it. But in hindsight or when I pause, when the kids go to bed, for example, it is clearer to see like, oh, well, this is, ah, it actually becomes a bit interesting.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
It becomes a bit interesting like, oh, it’s, there is this big resistance. There is this kind of judgment that this is worse than any other. There is this kind of judging in there.

Alexis Santos
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, the habit of my mind oftentimes, you know, I can usually say, well, if I just practice correctly, then, you know, let’s say I don’t have kids, but like then the kids would start behaving correctly. And it’s just helpful. You know, these small reminders of, for example, like even the Buddha had back aches and he had a cousin that was so jealous and angry with him that was trying to kill him. You know, like even a fully awakened being is going to meet a world full of its own conditions. So it’s not like suddenly we walk around and everything is just all roses and rainbows. We still meet the world. The world is going to be doing what it’s doing. And I think the more that understanding slowly gets into the heart, then there’s more and more clarity in terms of what’s arising in the present moment and how is it being met. And we’re not going to like everything. And that’s the lawfulness of the mind is that there will be the unpleasant. As one of those teachings the Buddha gave of the first arrow.

Alexis Santos
Everyone experiences the first arrow. But what is that second arrow? And that’s where we start to gain that insight of, oh, right. Yeah, it was something really difficult. Maybe it’s equanimity. Maybe it’s developing patience right now. What is that second arrow? Or maybe this habit of the second arrow right now is wanting it to be different. And we just watch that second arrow until we’ve understood. How that, you know, drags the mind into more frustration and irritation thinking that it should be different when in fact it’s like this right now. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
It reminds me of this saying from, I think it was from a Tibetan Buddhist teacher. He said like, you should love your problems as much as you like ice cream. Right. Because the problems, they are your possibility to grow.

Alexis Santos
Right. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
And I think we all know it’s very difficult in the moment when you’re facing a problem.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Oh, this is an ice cream.

Alexis Santos
Right.

Axel Wennhall
But I think for me, the kind of sign of my own development is that it doesn’t take too long until I remember. Okay, this is so hard. I don’t want to have this problem. Ah, okay. There is also possibility here to grow. What can I learn from it? That kind of curiosity comes in and kicks in. How is that like when you face problems in your life? Do you see them as ice cream?

Alexis Santos
Well, it depends on how big the problem is. You know, some problems are so big I have enough wisdom to know at this point that, you know, my, we were talking before we started, we’ve each been through a breakup, you know, over the last period of time. Mine was about a year and a half ago and it was a really hard one for me. And then before that, a few years before that, I lost my brother suddenly. And I hadn’t, you know, there was no expectation that I was not going to, I wasn’t just going to see it as impermanence. That would have been a bypassing of what was actually being experienced. And I had enough wisdom to know my job is just to feel right now, just feel, and the understanding will come. Right now I need to just feel. It hurts, it really hurts. And it feels, in the breakup, my own experience of it, you know, could feel abandoned or, in my perception, betrayed. Just my, you know, I want to be clear about that, just my side of it. So that’s what I was, you know, to be honest with that.

Alexis Santos
And then eventually, when the time is right, then I can see and really see the gift of what is being offered, which is another deeper layer of the mind that probably has nothing to do with this specific incident, but is a deeper, we could say, Moha or delusion and ignorance of my mind that still is operating. And this is where, in the Tibetan practices you mentioned, they often do bow to something that triggers a reaction that is unskillful. Because what’s seen, what can be understood is that that trigger is just waiting for life to pull the trigger. The trigger is there, right? These patterns are there. And when life comes along and then they trigger it, then we have a chance to free ourselves. So that’s difficult to be grateful for that trigger right when it’s happening, because it’s very painful. Let’s say a big loss, a big pain, but over time, these are what lighten the burden. Over time. There’s some, if we’re with it in a skillful way, some understanding can happen, some of the burden is put down. And that’s the gift when things are really hard.

Alexis Santos
And not easy to see that it’s a gift in the moment. If you go through a lot of these, at some point, you can start to see it sooner. As you’ve been describing also. But that is the progression. And then for me, yes, and things that are a little bit more challenging, now my mind can get curious and just be watching the mind as the difficulty is playing out. Because the momentum of awareness has been developed so much, just the habit is there, that if my mind is stuck on something, already the awareness is watching and being curious. What’s happening here? What’s going on? What’s the view or the reactivity? And even if there was something that happened not that long ago where I wanted to say something unskillful back, and I wanted to say it, and what was it? I can’t remember at the moment, but it was, you know, I could feel it was sort of this funny thing. I was like, ah, I want to say it. Do I say it? And, you know, the awareness was there and curious enough to be watching. And it would now feel a kind of gratitude, but you have more remorse, regret, you know, if it ended up being said.

Alexis Santos
So that process can be observed, you know, as we’re in it.

Axel Wennhall
Did you say it?

Alexis Santos
I’d have to take a moment to remember what the incident was to know, did I let it come out? It’s usually not. If I did, it would have been something that only I would know was not skillful. I would say it in a way that would relieve my own little itch, but they might not notice that it was actually a little bit unskillful.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, that’s a good sign of your practice. That if you say something, then only you know it’s unskillful.

Alexis Santos
Right, right. That’s the progression.

Axel Wennhall
I need to practice more.

Alexis Santos
Yeah, there’s still a little bit of ingredients there that are not quite wholesome or skillful.

Axel Wennhall
But I also think in terms of that, when we do unskillful things, which most people do.

Alexis Santos
Yeah, of course.

Axel Wennhall
I think one of the best things I’ve learned on the path is to say sorry. Yeah. And take responsibility. Right. Growing up, like of course we can have the intention to not do unskillful things, but we’re also fallible human beings. It happens and sometimes it’s not even by the intent.

Alexis Santos
It’s just right, right.

Axel Wennhall
How it’s perceived or something. But just the ability to take responsibility and say that you’re sorry and see if you can make it up in any way. I think that frees you so much. Because it also comes with this, we spoke about it before, it takes away this part of your mind that wants to be right all the time.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
So you become a bit more humble, you can say. More human as well. I think saying sorry is one of the most skillful ways to take responsibility in one’s life.

Alexis Santos
It is. And it seems, it’s not, it’s two words. I’m sorry. I mean, I am sorry. Three words. Should be easy to say. Another one that’s really hard to say, I was wrong. I was wrong. I did say that recently, just actually maybe yesterday, two days ago.

Axel Wennhall
How did it feel?

Alexis Santos
It felt, it’s amazing. And I was really looking at it. Why are those words so difficult to say? I was wrong. You know, because I, it’s really I. We have no problem saying you were wrong.

Axel Wennhall
He was wrong.

Alexis Santos
They were wrong. She was wrong. But I was wrong. You put the I in there, right? Because what is I? Then I is the whole defense mechanism. It’s the attachment to self. We have to defend it, make, you know, make it be seen a certain way. We say, you know, you’re telling me, you’re telling someone I was wrong. We think that’s the worst thing. But almost always what happens, if you tell someone else I was wrong, their respect for you goes up. But we have a very difficult time understanding that saying I was wrong does not mean you are a wrong person. You are a bad person. It just means there was something that happened that the mind, the heart was mistaken about, did something unskillful. But the words I was wrong. And I’m sorry also, beautiful, because it’s in a way an acknowledgment. The wrong, it’s a little bit tricky word to say wrong because it has a judgment in it of being bad. But in the sense of I misunderstood and I misremembered. And just acknowledging that. But I found it very interesting.

Alexis Santos
And it was almost playful in my mind to see, as I was saying, I was like, wow, those are words that are typically very difficult for us to say I was wrong.

Axel Wennhall
I think it’s a gift to give and it’s such a gift to receive as well. And there’s something with us human beings. I see it with my kids because they’re just one and a half years in between and they fight a lot. Like they play a lot and they fight a lot. And when they fight and someone hits the other ones, like we always like you stop and they have to come and say that they are sorry. And my youngest son, he can’t really say so he just claps very nicely on the knee or something. And you can see that the other sibling, like they just let it go.

Alexis Santos
When that has been done.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, when it’s done, when it’s said like, oh, I acknowledge I did something wrong. I’m sorry. And they just let it go. And I think that it gives us the permission to let something go as well. It helps us.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Letting go.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
And I think that’s the real gift. We’re getting help of letting go by saying I’m sorry or I was wrong.

Alexis Santos
Right. Yeah. Right.

Axel Wennhall
So I’ve listened to you talk about, I want to address two what I think is very important things in terms of meditating or being in this more natural way that we’ve been talking about. And the first one is what is sometimes preferred or used as right understanding, but I like the word you use better, wise understanding. So what is wise understanding and how can we have a wise understanding of our own experience?

Alexis Santos
So wise understanding, it’s a big topic. So depending on how much we want to go into it, but that would be the term in Pali Sammādiṭṭhi would be wise view, one way, wise view, wise understanding. And this from, again, this is mostly from the way my teacher uses it, which his particular gift as a teacher, he’s so practical. And he is, he talks, you know, he used to be when Burma was more accessible, it’s now again a little bit harder to go there, but he’d be talking to 50, 100 meditators every day. So hearing from so many people, their challenges, their struggles. And I think he, you know, and he really has an adaptive mind. And part of what the way he teaches was like a car mechanic. You know, you see enough cars coming through, you realize, okay, this, this, this, and okay, now you’re good. And he just car after car. And what I think his main, one of the main things that he saw as people were struggling in their practice was the basic habit of the mind. And this, again, the Buddha was pointing out was the tendency to personalize everything.

Alexis Santos
So when we see and introduce in our mind the idea that whatever is happening, that it’s okay that it’s happening. Because it’s happening out of conditions. Whatever emotion, whatever feeling, whatever doubt, whatever energy is in the body, whatever mental energies, it’s all happening out of conditions. That already helps us to step back, to allow it to be happening, to notice that it’s happening and maybe be interested in it as a process, some experience we can be aware of. But our typical view is, this shouldn’t be happening. I’m hurting, like my pain, why is my mind, why, you know, you and. So then the mind is caught in ideas of, again, right and wrong. Should be, shouldn’t be. So that first kind of intention, when we are remembering to be aware, one of the most powerful things that we can do, very subtle, but is to drop in to our awareness, into our mind, this reflection, it’s okay, it’s nature. Whatever is happening is happening out of conditions. Meaning there’s causes and conditions for, you know, someone else to be doing what they’re doing, and for our own body and mind to be doing what it’s doing, to be feeling what it’s feeling. So that wise understanding, in a way, helps us both kind of have a more cooled relationship and to be interested.

Alexis Santos
It’s like being a naturalist. You step into the woods, in the forest, you’re looking at a tree, at the sky, rather than making a demand on the clouds looking a certain way, or the, you know, the trees being a certain shape or the limbs going here and there. We simply sit there and observe it, looking at how the birds are landing here and there and where do they go. So that view, this wise understanding, wise view, is that, is to see it as nature.

Axel Wennhall
I think one of the key words for me is nature, it’s nature. It kind of just removes the identification.

Alexis Santos
Yes, exactly.

Axel Wennhall
And it’s interesting also to see that even the thought that says no, it shouldn’t be like this, it’s also nature.

Alexis Santos
Yes, yes.

Axel Wennhall
So we can step, even that is okay.

Alexis Santos
Anything, every moment that we have, that we can observe and that we experience, when we remember it becomes available, that view. So then we, you know, let’s say we step out into the world and we see something really unskillful happening. The habit of the mind is to judge it, but when we see it through the wisdom lens, the wisdom glasses, we see it as a process. Some conditions are there for that person or for that society, for that group of people to be acting out what they are acting out. Then we can understand it. And when we understand it, we can bring greater compassion, maybe more skillful responses. So this doesn’t mean we’re not taking action. We can take action, but now we can actually address more fundamentally at the root causes. How do we work with this situation? Right? And that’s true also internally with our own process. If we judge ourselves and thinking it’s misunderstanding the nature of experience, then we’re just adding more judgment, more resistance to it, rather than adding these really amazing qualities of awareness, right, of opening to the way it is, some sort of wisdom coming in.

Alexis Santos
It’s a very different experience, different paths. Yeah, right.

Axel Wennhall
And this leads me to the other thing I wanted to also explore with you is what is known as wise attitude.

Alexis Santos
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Axel Wennhall
How we look at things.

Alexis Santos
Yeah. How do you relate to that?

Axel Wennhall
One thing I’m exploring or playing with at the moment is what is natural in terms of the attitude. So what’s inherent in the view, so to speak, in awareness itself, like the curiosity. I usually kind of when I guide meditations, I usually try to speak about acceptance or allowing this kindness aspect.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
This befriending aspect and also this curiosity. And it seems to me that those three are inherent in awareness when we can kind of relax and recognize awareness itself. And at the same time, we can kind of use them or remind ourselves of the attitudes in how we look at things.

Alexis Santos
Say those three again.

Axel Wennhall
Which three? Acceptance, kindness and curiosity.

Alexis Santos
Great.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah. They’re also interconnected. Right. Because when we allow everything to be as it is.

Alexis Santos
Right.

Axel Wennhall
That’s kindness.

Alexis Santos
Right.

Axel Wennhall
And when we’re curious.

Alexis Santos
Right.

Axel Wennhall
We are allowing everything to be as it is.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
So they are all coming together. Right. But sometimes we can perhaps go in through one door. Right. And they will enhance each other.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Each other, yeah.

Alexis Santos
Yeah, I love that. That’s great. And that’s that, yeah, I’d say that’s the essence of when we could say the wise attitude is available. That’s how we would be relating to it. And, you know, and to recognize that we can always introduce this wise attitude with what’s happening in the present moment. Because oftentimes it isn’t available, like to be relating with a kind and curious. But then we can, if we continue to explore, then we can be curious about the quality of the heart that isn’t curious. And we can get curious about that. Or we can accept that. Yeah. Or we can be aware of it. Right. And that continually can get introduced over and over again until it becomes such a habit of the mind that whatever is there in the present moment is something that we can learn. And this takes some time. How am I relating? How am I relating? Or what is the relationship to what’s happening right now? That takes some time to feel. Because in the beginning usually it’s just developing awareness is where we need to be putting our energy.

Alexis Santos
It’s like reminding the mind to be aware. But over time we become very sensitive also to how am I relating to this? And this is where we see the effect of wise understanding on the attitude is that when we remember that whatever’s happening is nature, so we bring that in, whatever’s happening is nature, that also helps our relationship to what’s happening. To be one that’s more kind, more open, more curious, seeing it as a process, something that we can learn from, something that we can simply be aware of, maybe for a while. Don’t have to get it to change. So that’s this attitude and view. Attitude and view are affecting each other. Right? So we bring in the view, it helps our attitude. Right? And having an attitude towards something in a way that where the heart response to it is kind and open, the view also, slowly the view can be purified. We see it more and more and understand it more and more for what it is. It’s changing, not in our control. Right? And it’s okay. It doesn’t have to be made different.

Alexis Santos
It’s what’s described as the Dukkha characteristic. It’s not meant to be perfect. It is what it is. Right? And that gives a sense of freedom over time.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, it’s interesting. It’s also, here comes the paradox again, that it really is in awareness of freedom slice. Because of course we won’t be able to be curious, kind, and allowing all the time. But when we see that, and we say, okay, this is going on, then it’s all there.

Alexis Santos
Right, exactly.

Axel Wennhall
It’s all there again.

Okänd
Yeah. So.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Amazing.

Alexis Santos
Yeah, there’s this one line that I loved from, again, from Sayadaw U Tejaniya. Someone, a meditator was reporting to him and getting a little frustrated of constantly trying to have the right attitude. And he was getting frustrated because all he would see every time he was observing his pain in his body or in his knee, he would be seeing aversion and not liking and resistance and being identified with it and struggling with it. And then what U Tejaniya said to him was, or to this person was, you know, trying to have the right attitude can be the wrong attitude. Simply acknowledging that the mind is resisting is the right attitude. And we just kind of, you know, we’re going to be caught in this dance over and over again. And this is part of it, as we get, as it becomes less personal, it becomes more playful. We simply see it. But it’s amazing. Something that we don’t see can make the heart sink into total despair. And then when it’s seen, that very thing that was sinking us into, I don’t want to even be alive anymore. When you see it, it’s where is the sinking?

Alexis Santos
And how different? And that can be very tender when we see that, because then we want everyone to have the freedom that is just around the corner. If we can just recognize sometimes, not everything is resolved so easily, but some patterns can be when they are seen, when they’re a step back from, and not as identified with, that it’s okay that the emotion is there, if we’re aware of it. It’s okay if the mind is caught in the I-ness of something, but we’re learning from it. Slowly that untangling happens. And that, you know, the taste of freedom becomes more recognized.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, and when we’re seeing that, we’re entangled in the I, we’re not longer entangled.

Alexis Santos
Right. Yes.

Axel Wennhall
We started our conversation by talking a little bit about coming home. So I’m curious, in terms of perhaps not having a goal of the practice, but why? Why are you practicing in terms of like, what’s your heart’s desire, if you put it that way, in terms of like, why do you practice now?

Alexis Santos
Hmm. I’d say there’s probably two quick things that come to mind. One is that life keeps happening. So the way I understand practice is, what is the most skillful way of meeting the present moment? And that to me is practice. What is the most skillful way? What’s the most kind way? Kind to myself, kind to the present moment, kind to this, whatever I’m engaged in. So because life keeps happening, then there’s practice. Practice again meaning how to be with life, how to be with each changing moment, each day, all the different emotions and feelings and movements of the mind. If we see the mind again as being conditioned, then slowly it will get worn down and you’ll feel the residue. And I see this again as a retreat teacher. Folks that come on retreat, that have all these wonderful qualities growing, they usually focus on the experience. But what I see is the qualities are growing, the quality of awareness, the stability of the mind is growing, and the result is more freedom, more ease. And then there’s like, wow amazing retreat is so amazing.

Alexis Santos
Then they leave retreat, and then I see them maybe six months or a year later, and then they have to do all that work again of getting these qualities going. So we can see this kind of arc comes up because of the continuity of practice, not because of retreat, but because the mind has been used skillfully. And then slowly if you stop practicing it comes down. So that’s one thing. And I saw that in my own practice. When I was as a monk practicing in Burma, so much momentum, what a gift. But then I assumed that momentum would be permanent. It wasn’t permanent. And I had to learn that the hard way until eventually it was like, okay, life keeps happening. I need to continue to cultivate the mind, to continue living the practice. And that’s a whole realm of discussion, how to do that, how to be interested in that. And then the other side, the other thing that popped in my mind when you asked why, just my nature also, I’m curious to know how, to use this life as skillfully as possible. How free can the mind and heart be?

Alexis Santos
If one really dedicates themselves, it don’t have to be in the monastery, but really dedicates your life, which in life again means moment to moment. So in each moment to be cultivating some awareness and wisdom, when that becomes the habit and to really to give oneself to that, to see where life goes, I’m very curious about that, the real potential of freeing the heart and mind in all the different ways. Which again means ultimately to be recognizing our own reality, to really come home, to really understand everything that’s here, and all the conditioning, all the different, even generations of conditioning that we’re carrying on. What does it mean to have been with it all, to have felt it all, and to learn from it?

Axel Wennhall
Good reasons.

Alexis Santos
Yeah, that’s why I practice. And other reasons would come as well.

Axel Wennhall
Of course, yeah. I had a similar humbling experience. I remember truly feeling I was the happiest, one of the happiest person in the world. And I also remember coming along with that feeling was that it will only get better. And it’s interesting because life just, like life does, was my teacher and showed me like, oh, you can have your funny ideas. I will show you that life comes with its joys and its sorrows. And you will face more resistance. I will give you some hard problems for you to work with. So that was interesting that you also had that experience.

Alexis Santos
Oh, yes. And was that a result of practice, like on retreat? Or was that just like life happiness?

Axel Wennhall
It came during a period where the conditions were perfect for my interest in meditation.

Alexis Santos
Oh, okay. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
So I was living in a cabin out in nature. It was spring in Sweden. I was writing my book. I was meditating a lot. We were building our app. All things were just moving in one direction. Hmm.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
And I really felt like I got it.

Alexis Santos
Right.

Axel Wennhall
I got this now.

Alexis Santos
Yes. Yes. You got it figured out.

Axel Wennhall
I got it figured out.

Alexis Santos
Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Very good experience.

Alexis Santos
It is.

Axel Wennhall
Very good experience to be on the top.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah. And believing that you will stay on the top.

Alexis Santos
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that does point to a couple different qualities from what I am hearing is, you know, there are these what are called the worldly joys, which are the joys of things working out in the world. And we can be really happy, really delighted when everything is going well. That will, of course, change as we know, because nothing is permanent. And then there’s the unworldly joys. And those are the joys of the quality of the heart-mind, that when those are developed, they aren’t dependent on the world. And this is why we can say that there is a joy that is independent of conditions, of this world being a certain way. But it’s a joy that isn’t like just elated. It means a contentment. And depending on conditions, it would be one of those, you know, beautiful qualities that we talk about in the Dharma of either loving kindness, if things are going kind of well, compassion, if we’re surrounded by suffering, joy, sympathetic joy, right, around the well-being of others, and then equanimity.

Alexis Santos
So mind that can, in fact, mind and heart that can be with all conditions. So those kinds of unworldly, again, not depending on the worldly conditions, but these are just coming from the quality itself being developed. We see, oh, yeah, these qualities will continue to grow and don’t depend on the app launching on the right day or on the, you know, but I think you were taste, you’re in both of those at that moment.

Axel Wennhall
Exactly. So the not right view or the not right view was that I thought, okay, well, I’m in touch now where I’m living from this unworldly view. But I didn’t understand how dependent I also was on the worldly view.

Alexis Santos
Exactly. Yeah. That’s happened to me many times. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Seems like a part of the human experience.

Alexis Santos
Of course. Yes.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah. Yeah. Before I’m gonna hand over the word to you and for you to guide us in meditation, one final thing that’s related to what you said of your reasons why you meditate is that I heard you said a few times, a day well spent or a week well spent. And it was something resonated with me when I heard a day well spent and I think it comes down to my reason why I want to meditate. A day well spent. And a day well spent is something different to me today than it was 10 years ago before I started to meditate.

Alexis Santos
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Before it was just about what I did.

Alexis Santos
Right.

Axel Wennhall
Now it’s how I relate. Yeah. And if I show up. Right. If I have the intention to learn.

Okänd
Right.

Axel Wennhall
To yeah, I like the expression in English to be here with both mind and heart and it’s to be fully here.

Alexis Santos
Right. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Thank you.

Alexis Santos
It was fun talking with you. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Likewise. So do you want to take over from here and guide us into a meditation?

Alexis Santos
Sure. I’ll guide. I won’t take over, but I’ll guide. Yeah. So I just want to invite you, if you’re not already doing so, just as we maybe were mentioning that phrase coming home, just noticing what that invites you into coming home right now.

Alexis Santos
So maybe you’ve been driving a car, walking around while listening to this conversation, or things have been a little bit calmer for you, sitting. Just noticing how it feels to.

Alexis Santos
To open to what’s already happening. in the body. Maybe noticing any feelings that are present. I’m not doing anything, really. It’s just an opportunity for the nature of this moment, the nature of the body, the mind, to be. To be with what’s happening.

Alexis Santos
If it’s helpful, you might drop in some words, It’s okay. Whatever is happening is nature.

Alexis Santos
Allowing this, allowing this body to be natural, allowing this moment to be natural. We don’t have to push or try and get somewhere. What does it feel like to return home? Maybe feeling the body breathing.

Alexis Santos
And then allowing it to be enough. Just a moment of knowing what’s happening. And then resting, being natural. It’s so easy for the mind to begin maybe putting in more energy or trying to get somewhere. What is it like to soften those movements, the trying, holding on, just giving permission? Noticing

Alexis Santos
that it doesn’t take a lot of work for a moment of hearing to happen, just sounds being known, very light.

Alexis Santos
It’s the nature of life to keep happening. The body has its own experiences, vibrations, aches and pains. And the mind has its movements, images and thoughts, words.

Alexis Santos
And our practice can be very simple, this idea of returning home. We want to explore this idea, the idea of practice. How do I return home in a way that is relaxing? It’s okay to be allowing what’s happening. To be learning from what’s happening. To

Alexis Santos
be curious in the present moment.

Alexis Santos
As we close out this session, let me just bring to mind all the many other beings in the world who in this moment are doing what they can to be awake. To be cultivating a moment of awareness. Learning

Alexis Santos
how to be kind to one’s own heart and mind, kind to this world. And so many other beings are also exploring these practices.

Alexis Santos
So may the goodness of all of our efforts be shared freely with all beings. May all beings be free from suffering and the many causes of suffering. Thank

Alexis Santos
you for your practice.

Alexis Santos
Alexis, good to be with you.

Axel Wennhall
Thank you so much for our talk and for the meditation. It was lovely.

Alexis Santos
Glad we’re connected. Likewise.

Axel Wennhall
Thank

Axel Wennhall
you for listening to this episode. I hope you have been inspired by our conversation and by Alexis meditation. This is a podcast from the Swedish meditation app, Mindfully, and our mission is to help people live a more awake, compassionate and meaningful life. And that’s also why all of our talks are free to listen to. So if this talk resonated with you, please feel free to share it with your friends. And what will you bring with you from the conversation? I have summarized some of the things that I will bring with me. And in speaking about having a wise attitude, Alexis referred to a saying from his teacher, Sayadaw U Tejaniya, that trying to have the right attitude can be the wrong attitude. It reminded me of the simplicity of just being with what is, as it is, rather than striving to have a certain attitude. Alexis also said that when it becomes less personal, it can become more playful. I think one good sign of knowing if we are awake is that we don’t take ourselves too seriously. And that’s such a great reminder.

Axel Wennhall
A third thing Alexis said that stuck with me was what is the most skillful way to be with the present moment? For me, that question encapsulates the whole path. And I have also heard that question being known as the intelligence of the moment. And when we are present and awake, this knowing is natural for us. And as you know, it’s not difficult to be present, but it’s easy to forget. And that’s why that question can be so good to remind oneself. What is the most skillful way to be with the present moment? And lastly, I will also try to remember that everything is nature. It’s all awful, and it’s all okay. Take care and be well.