This is a transcript from our podcast episode with Loch Kelly about Effortless Mindfulness.

Axel Wennhall
A warm welcome to the Swedish podcast, “Meditera Mera”, which in direct translation means “meditate more”, with me, Axel Wennhall, and Gustav Nord. This is a podcast made by the Swedish meditation app, Mindfully, and we are very happy to introduce our fifth international guest today, Loch Kelly. We’re currently sitting at Gustav’s place in Stockholm, and we’re just about to call Loch, who’s six hours away in New York. Loch Kelly is the author of the award-winning book, “The Way of Effortless Mindfulness”. Loch is a licensed psychotherapist and recognized leader in the field of meditation and awakening. He’s also the founder of the non-profit Open-hearted Awareness Institute and has worked in community mental health, established homeless shelters, and counseled family members of 9-11. Loch is dedicated to reducing suffering and supporting people to live from open-hearted awareness. He teaches the advanced yet simple non-dual pointers and direct methods of effortless mindfulness, informed by psychology and social justice. And effortless mindfulness is exactly what we will discuss and explore with Loch today. What is the difference between effortless and deliberate mindfulness? How can we shift awareness from our heads to our hearts? And what advice does Loch have for all of us who want to meditate more and discover who we really are?

Loch Kelly
Looks good. Okay. Amazing.

Talare 8
The technical problem.

Loch Kelly
That’s the hard part.

Talare 8
21st century. Yes. Amazing. Yeah. Hi Loch.

Axel Wennhall
I’m really glad that we could connect today. And I’m really happy to introduce you to our listeners and to my fellow Swedes. And as they will hear today, you are one of the clearest voices on non -dual awareness and effortless mindfulness, which we will discuss today. And I also have had the good fortune to read your book, Effortless Mindfulness. And it’s just such a good book in explaining what could be quite a difficult topic for the mind to understand, and especially how you point it out. So I’m excited to explore this topic today with you. But first of all, how are you right now?

Loch Kelly
Thank you, Axel. So nice to be with you and with all those in Sweden and Swedes around the world. I’m so glad to be here. So I’m well and here in New York City. It’s a great time. People are sheltering in place a lot, so it both is challenging to people, but I think it also has given opportunity for many people to go deeper and to kind of deal with some of the underlying stress and anxiety and root of some suffering by using effortless mindfulness and other forms of really growth as well as just stress management.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, it is this kind of involuntary retreat right now. That’s right. That’s a good way of saying it. Yeah. But let’s just start first. I’m curious, where were you in your life when you discovered meditation?

Loch Kelly
Yes. So, I mean, I started early. I had a friend who, whose brother went to do a TM class. So I was 15 and my friend’s brother was 18 and said, well, you guys can come along if you want. And so I actually went at that time and was introduced and had a kind of a profound experience in that initial TM experience. And then as I practiced it, it seemed to be more of a stress management technique for me. But it opened the door to showing me not just a mental kind of consciousness or a physical, trying to change my physical life or my emotional life or my mental life, but to use consciousness or meditation as a way to get to the underlying foundation of all of those.

Axel Wennhall
And where did you go after that from? I mean, 15 years is pretty young. Yes. And how was your path to become a teacher?

Loch Kelly
So at 15, I did the meditation and then I probably did at 16, 17, 18, what every other teenager does, which is not meditation, which is rock and roll and drugs and relationships and, you know, all sorts of exploration going off to college. And but actually, I think the next thing that happened was I had a series in my sophomore year at college, a series of losses and deaths. My one of my best friends, I played ice hockey, which might interest some Swedes as well. And I had a best friend on the hockey team. My father developed cancer and died within a year. And then my grandmother, who lived with us, who was 99, died that same year. So I had these three kind of one, two, three losses. And it was difficult at that time to find other classmates that understood because they hadn’t been through a lot of that at 19 years old. So I was walking out of the library one night and I was feeling this kind of, you know, grief that I was trying to deal with. And I just kind of heard myself say, I don’t know if I can take this much longer. And somehow I looked up as if it was coming from above me or outside of me. And as I did, my awareness opened up to kind of a bigger more spacious feeling of who I was and kind of opened to this night sky, this beautiful winter night sky. But it wasn’t, I wasn’t just seeing it, I was feeling as if my consciousness opened to a more spacious sense of who I was. And then I felt like I was kind of able to have more space to let feelings and emotions and thoughts and a kind of a support of this bigger consciousness. And I started laughing and crying and just kind of feeling, you know, there had been a shift, uh, that happened kind of quickly and kind of intentionally, but, um, kind of unintentionally. But it showed me that now I had access, that I could return to this, uh, more spacious and pervasive kind of awareness based feeling of, of, of connection. Um, and so that was kind of a unique way of, uh, discovering that.

Axel Wennhall
And how did you sort of connect the dots between that experience, just walking outside, and then through meditation?

Loch Kelly
Yeah, so, so I had had an experience, um, before that, where, um, I was playing, I was actually playing goalie in ice hockey and, um, I, uh, heard somebody on TV, uh, talk about an athlete who had eyes in the back of his head. So I thought, oh, I kind of know what that means. And I started opening up my awareness in this kind of panoramic way, not that I could literally see what was behind me, but feeling as if there was this open, again, this open view, uh, this sense of, um, being in a flow, consciousness or in the zone, which I, then I could intentionally do by, by opening up this panoramic awareness and dropping in, uh, then I could feel like I was connected and if somebody shot the puck, my hand would just go up without following it with my small mind and the and it felt like I was part of the team and in this flow and in the now, and I was explaining it to one of my friends who kind of like didn’t quite understand what I was saying. But another, uh, senior on the team gave me, said here, kid, read this. He came in the next practice and it was Zen and the art of archery. So it was a little book that was one of the first books that kind of started to explain meditation. I think it was written in the 50s and when I read it I started thinking, oh, people intentionally do this. There’s whole cultures and wisdom traditions around the world that value what feels to me like, you know, one of the most enjoyable and transformative, uh, ways of being.

Axel Wennhall
And and from from being a hockey goalie, uh, stopping the pucks, where did you go from there, like starting to meditate and explore with different teachers?

Loch Kelly
Yeah, so then I, then I would, you know, studied a little bit in school after having those experiences in college and then, uh, went to graduate school and there I went on a fellowship to Sri Lanka, India and Nepal. So in my 20s I went to a university in Sri Lanka and then a meditation center and then to studying in, uh, with these longer Retreats. So I would, I did these Vipassana or insight meditation, teravada style, meditation retreats from five day retreat, 10 day couple, 10 day retreats and two 21 day retreats. Going on these retreats was really enjoyable and beneficial. And then I went up north to uh, dham sala and it happened that, uh, the Dalai Lama had just come back from France where he was teaching, uh, his first retreat ever on Zog Shen, which is this direct path tradition in Tibetan Buddhism, um, and he was all excited and giving us, a group of us, a talk and I put my hand up. I said, you know, who shall I go study with? And he mentioned this one teacher, uh, Toku Ergen Rinpoche, who was a great mentor to me in Nepal. And so I changed all my plans, went off to Nepal and went up the mountain partway to this small little hut where there’s only a few students. And this teacher just gave a little short talk and then gave this pointing out instruction where he had us shift our awareness. And when he did this, within a minute, I felt the same way I did at the end of a 10 day or 21 day retreat, except my eyes were open and I was filled with not only calm, but kind of joy and connection. And it was just astounding that the premise of the teaching here was that the awakening that we’re seeking is already here within us, that it’s not a skill that’s developed. The meditation isn’t just like learning the piano or something, uh, but there it’s a figure ground shift, it’s a background, foreground shift, and that we are identified with a certain constellation of consciousness, a way of operating that creates a small self out of thoughts, going to thoughts, um, and creating a thinker. And then, if we just can, uh, relax back, it’s not just the absence of that small self, but there’s a presence of an awake consciousness that includes our thinking, that is an awake nature, that has the greater capacity to be with our emotions and be more creative and loving, um, and so to discover that in literally minutes, as you can imagine, was, uh, just so fascinating. And I put my hand up, I said what, what, what just happened? How do we do this? Is this really true? Is this possible? You know, and so that that led me right there. That was kind of the turning point for me to say, okay, whatever this is, I’m going to see whether is this my imagination? Is this some state, short-term state or Peak experience, or is this literally what they’re saying? Is there a new shift of identity and level of mind that I could live from and that, if it’s this simple and it’s so available, could we all, as human beings, learn to shift or grow into this next stage of human development?

Axel Wennhall
So it’s interesting to to listen to you when, when you also say that it’s, it seems like you had the thought, this is too good to be true.

Loch Kelly
Yes, that’s right.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, but what have you discovered since So was it too good to be true or was it? Did you discover reality?

Loch Kelly
Yes, I’ll give you, I’ll cut to the chase that it wasn’t too good to be true. It’s true and it’s even better than good. Nice put. So but the you know, I’ll just say that one of the, you know, helpful teachings about this awakened consciousness, what’s called awakened consciousness, true nature, open hearted awareness, bodhi chitta. In Hinduism it’s called Turiya Tita or the Tao or but the feeling of it is kind of this awake awareness that’s embodied and open hearted. That is just not a thought based consciousness. So it’s the awareness that’s in a baby prior to learning concepts. And then it’s becomes more the primary discovered to be the primary dimension from which thought comes. So that awareness which is here, we’re always looking out from it. So we keep missing it. So there’s there’s four little pointers from one of the Tibetan traditions says, Why is it, if it’s so available and inherent, why don’t we recognize it? And the four points are the first one is because it’s so close we can’t see it. So in other words, it’s so close that we’re looking out to experience or to teachers or to teachings or to contents of consciousness, but it’s actually what’s. What seeing rather than what we’re seeing. And then the second one is that it’s so subtle we can’t understand it. So in other words, it’s so thought free that we can’t understand it with our mind that understands other things using thought. So it needs to be experienced. So it’s so subtle we can’t understand it. We have to feel it almost like balancing on a bicycle. Yeah, when you balance a bicycle, someone could say, can you tell me how do I balance? You know, what is? Are you balancing? Are you balancing on the bicycle? You know, explain that theory of balancing to me so I can balance on the bike. So it’s really just like that. It’s like the understanding is really a felt sense of being that then can use thought. So it’s not a meditation state to calm your small self. It’s actually kind of a continuous intuition or like being in a flow consciousness that is optimal way of responding to life. So then the third one is it’s it the reason we miss it. It’s so simple. We can’t believe it.

Talare 8
Hmm.

Loch Kelly
It’s just so simple once you realize, oh, it’s not this esoteric thing of, you know, angel singing and kundalini awakening and big fireworks. It’s just like, oh, just awareness that is spacious and pervasive and isn’t suffering and is, you know, free of fear, free of worry, fear, free of shame that can be with parts of me that are afraid or. Worried, but isn’t identified with it. So it’s so simple. And then the fourth one is the one that I was talking about, that the reason we don’t recognize it, it’s so good we can’t believe it.

Talare 8
Hmm.

Loch Kelly
It’s just so good. Like when you realize you go, no way, this is what I’ve been looking for out there or by doing this or by meeting this person or achieving this goal, then I thought I would get this happiness. But it’s like a happiness with a capital H that’s just isn’t dependent on any conditions. And it’s kind of a love that isn’t a love of something or receiving of love. It’s just that you feel like you are the fabric of love, that there’s a kind of loving, interconnected friendliness and a little bliss even. So so so that’s good. So so it’s possible. So, yeah, all that to say is that, you know, and I’ll, you know, go through and we can, you know, talk about the how, but that it it does seem that thousands of people are able to recognize this, then realize it and then learn to shift into not only being aware of it but being aware from it and then being able to speak and create and relate to others from it. And it takes a little bit of training, kind of like a developmental stage of life, but that it’s um, it doesn’t require going and joining a monastery or becoming an Olympic athlete of meditation.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, and- and I also think that it’s important to stress- and you, you write about it in your book- that when we do our favorite activities, we, we sort of experience this, but we can sometimes perhaps misunderstand it as an experience rather than a way of being.

Loch Kelly
That’s right, yeah, so that that’s. That’s very important, even in terms of like what we think of as meditation or what are traditionally the preliminary practices of meditation, is that they are, you know, necessarily kind of times apart, sitting quietly in order to relax and de-stress, to find this calm abiding and this insight into the non-solidness of the sense of self, that then we get up from the cushion after a certain amount of time and then we’re a less stressed uh ego, uh less stressed small self, and this is like discovering another operating system that’s already installed, that is an upgrade and it’s a shift of mind and identity that we do have glimpses of, as you say, um, when we shift out of the small self or thought based doer, when we do activities that we love, so just walking in nature or playing a sport, or we get a glimpse of the functioning and walking and talking, uh, from a place that feels connected to nature, that feels, but we focus on the place or the activity that takes us there, like, oh, i better go with my friends that i went, you know that when i experienced this, we walked in this place, so i better go there, but i don’t have a vacation for six months, so you know, I’ll wait till then. You know, as if it’s the place or the people or the activity or even the qualities of joy, it’s not even that. So the simplicity of this is is finding that which doesn’t come and go, that’s awake, that’s not thought based, that is alert and embodied and isn’t about the contents of con consciousness, it’s more about the context or the space within the atoms and the movement or the depth of the ocean um, that includes the, the movement of the waves.

Axel Wennhall
Hmm. I’ve been working with marketing before and it’s it’s this fantastic ad for meditation that sort of your life’s best moments. They all consist of like you, you operating from this new operating system, this system. That’s right. But and also what you said before that it’s, I think one of the the greatest insights into this is sort of like what’s easily happened when we meditate is that we try to achieve a certain meditative, meditative state. And and and the insight in that it’s always an already here.

Loch Kelly
Yes, that’s right.

Axel Wennhall
And that can sort of also help to, as you say, usually say, unhook from from thoughts or to experience this awake awareness easier to sort of see that, wait a minute, I don’t have to, I don’t have to actually follow my breath for for one week in a meditation hut or it’s it’s already here.

Loch Kelly
Yes, that’s right. And the preliminary practices are meant to be preliminary. They’re meant, you know, in this, you know, one of the reasons that I call it effortless mindfulness is that this teacher that who wrote, you know, a couple of books Toku Ergen Rimpoche, said, oh, there’s two types of mindfulness, deliberate mindfulness and effortless mindfulness. You start with deliberate mindfulness, but only do it as much as you need to just calm and soothe your mind and body and then shift to this already awake consciousness that is calm by itself and already alert and awake. So it’s about kind of shifting, you know, calming as much as you need, but then not continuing to do those preliminary practices as if they will lead you any further than they’re supposed to. They’re they’re supposed to be a kind of initial practice in some traditions. And so you get this feeling like, okay, if it’s already here, and it’s a way there’s an effortless awareness, what is it that can shift into it? What is it that can know it? And that becomes one of the main obstacles is that thinking can’t find it, the will can’t do it, even the mindful witness can’t see it. So it literally is this feeling that awareness has to know itself. And so that feeling of what that’s like and how to find the awareness that’s already here becomes this like riding a bicycle, just becomes this, you know, just try different ways of doing that in these different doors, but then you learn how to let go, but then the key is, it’s the awareness that’s letting go, it’s not the one who’s trying, and then the awareness can’t just stop it, no self or not knowing the awareness. Let’s go into that which is already aware, and then you’re aware from there. So we could do a little glimpse practice here if you like to, because it’s kind of follows exactly what I’m saying, if you like.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, that would be great because we’re really coming into the how now. So I think it’s it’s best if you would sort of guide us through.

Loch Kelly
Yes. So, you know, again, it’s, you know, the everyone takes a, you know, different amount of time to kind of get a hold of this or to let go of the holding of this. And there’s different doorway. So this will be one doorway can work for some people, maybe not for others. That’s fine. What I find is that, you know, if I try seven different things, even in like a two hour teaching, you know, people won’t get three or four of them. But then all of a sudden it’s like, no, no. Oh, oh, whoa, wow. You know, so then, you know, so just, you know, stay loose and playful about it. And and so the sense is that, you know, the premise or the hypothesis is that there’s an awareness that’s not thought based, that feels more open minded, open hearted, spacious, pervasive, awareness based. That’s the kind of where you’re looking, because what happens sometimes is people will let go of thought and become aware of the invisible awareness. But then the difficulty is you go back to thought to check whether you’re there. So so I sometimes say, don’t go back to thought for a second opinion. There’s a kind of a. A thought based knowing. Then there’s a not knowing. And then it’s kind of like a not knowing that knows. So that awareness based knowing is just feels like an alert. Clear. You know, so that’s why it’s so simple. You can’t believe it. Like, this is nothing. This is not, you know, like, that’s why that’s why we miss it. But when you hang out as this and are aware from this, as we’ll just play with now, and it includes everything, all of a sudden there’s this simple, clear and, you know, loving. So you’re not trying to love yourself. You’re actually discovering. The love that you are. And then as that loving being, you love these different parts of you. So it’s not like you loving yourself. It’s it’s actually discovering the love. That you are. That’s essentially you. And then different parts, the judging part of you or the. Comparing part will come up and then you just say, okay, I see you, it’s okay. You know, you’re welcome. So here’s the simple framework is that the current constellation of consciousness that we feel, if you feel like. I am listening to this talk, I am thinking this thought, just to find that sense of I as a felt sense. So usually we’re looking from that little I. And if you just kind of feel it like where it’s located, for most people, it’s located kind of in the middle of your head, looking out of your eyes, yeah. And it’s an ego function. So its job as as just a functional part of you is to, you know, make you safe and solve any problems. So what’s going on outside? Is there any problem? What’s going on inside? Is there any problem? So it becomes this problem solving. Constellation which keeps it reinforcing this small, contracted feeling of I. Yeah. So we’re just going to do these simple shifts of. Inquiry. We’re going to use an inquiry method here and just see what you feel. So the first inquiry is simply you don’t have to do anything special. You can just be as you are, eyes open or closed. And then you can just be curious. What’s here now? When there’s no problem to solve. So just understanding with your mind the question. And then letting the problem solver relax. And let your awareness feel or sense what’s here now. What’s aware just now when there’s no problem to solve? And just notice that. The felt sense of relief or openness or. Awareness. What’s here when there’s no problem to solve? And then what’s it like to be this awareness that’s here? To rest as this. And then as this awareness that’s here, what’s it like to be aware from here? And then as you’re aware from here, what’s the relationship to sensation, thought, feelings, and the world from here as this, which includes and welcomes all that. That’s arising. Just notice whether there’s a boundary to who you are and yet feel the quality of being here. And then from here, if you start with something like this, then instead of meditating, it’s what I call marinating. So you can just spend five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes saturating or marinating. From this awareness-based knowing, this awake awareness, to this embodied awareness that is the inseparable pair of awareness and aliveness. And then feel this interconnection which has a quality of okayness and friendliness and maybe some sense of love or non-fear, non-worry, unity. Which is like the feeling you get when you’re doing what you love. But now you’re not looking out as much toward what you’re doing. You’re feeling equally out. Then you’re feeling here now and then you’re almost feeling back to the awareness that has your back and is all around and within. It’s kind of a spacious and pervasive feeling of being.

Axel Wennhall
Thank you. Yeah, personally, I love that question. What’s here if there’s no problem to solve? It’s it works for me every time. And it’s sort of I see it as we have this, as you say, the problem solver or a project manager who always wants to solve things. And it’s yeah, it’s also this time traveler going into the past in the future, constantly on the used to get that glimpse. What’s in the background? What’s always here? What’s prior to that? Yes. What? What’s seeing that? What can be with that without engaging in it? It’s and there’s also this other thing that came up to me during your during your glimpses. It’s sort of sort of this quality of witnessing your experience. And this is also something I would like to discuss with you because because you write in your book that we need to leave the witness program and and that that it’s helpful in some way to be sort of a detached witness to what we experience. Yes, because it can sort of help us not to be stuck with the content of consciousness and yes, with with our experience, but also that it’s easy that it becomes an identity that we are sort of the witness and and that also the the relationship between what we experience. Yeah, it it feels that it’s apart from us rather than it’s here and awake. So how, how do you sort of guide people to leave the witness program?

Loch Kelly
Yeah, beautiful. Yeah, the witness, the I don’t know if you have that, but in the United States, you know, if somebody is is in danger, they they they’re taken by the authorities into a witness protection program. Yeah, so so that means they’re like, all right, we’ll give you a new identity and send you to Arizona, you know, or something. So there’s if we if we follow this as kind of a progressive path, which, you know, many people start with kind of mindfulness or insight meditation or Zen or other step by step, you watch your breath or one pointed attention. And when you do that, you’re actually you’re actually calming and focusing from your small ego center. You’re actually focusing from that manager on a breath and you’re calming the manager. Then the next step is you step above or back or out to look at the manager and you start to realize, oh, that managers that’s looking at my thoughts. If I look at it from a mindful witness point of view, it’s actually just thoughts, feelings and sensations. There’s no solid self there. There’s no manager. There’s just I am focusing on my thoughts and the I am focusing on my thoughts is a thought that’s coming and going. And it’s being witnessed by this mindful witness or this meditator. So that usually is a point of view. Then you can open up or rather than pull the, you can pull the camera back to a bigger choiceless awareness point of view or what’s called big sky mind. And then you have a bigger mindful witness. But now you’re actually, you know, you’re looking at the content, so you’re free of the personal suffering, but you’re also impersonal in that you’re not embodied, you’re not emotional and you’re not feeling the full intimate human experience. So then there’s another shift where you actually, instead of pulling the witness back, you actually look back through the witness. Well, it’s like who’s behind the camera. And that opens you to this pure awareness, which a lot of non-dual teachers talk about. So now you’re in this field of pure awareness, which still is the subtlest dimension of consciousness. It now can be both outside and within. That’s aware, but it’s still as if many of the non-dual teachers will describe it as. So then the awareness is like a movie screen and everything that’s happening is like a movie. So there’s still two things going on. So this move that is the pointer from one of these traditions, this Dzogchen, Mahamudra tradition is, is the awareness is what’s arising as vibration, sensation, feeling and thought. Is it separate coming, going, or is it more like ocean and wave? Is it more that actually the vibration, the energy, the sensation is not two is arising as aliveness. So there’s an inseparable pair of awareness and aliveness or what’s called same taste. So the awareness and the aliveness, the movement, sensation, vibration, pleasant, unpleasant, it has the same taste. And so there’s an interconnection, interdependence, which is actually what emptiness means, that there’s no separate thing. Everything’s interconnected. So you start to feel this embodied. So you kind of drop into this feeling of being connected to everything while not being identified and while not creating the need for a small manager to manage it. And then that feeling of relating even to the world. There’s like a connection to everything from this field of awareness, but it’s got an intimacy and embodiment and you’re feeling your body from within as well as all around. So you feel an emotion arising and it’s kind of liberated by the awareness that doesn’t have to form a manager or something to repress it, but it’s not just detached and depersonalized. There’s almost a more, you know, embracing, intimate, full human experience, but awake human experience.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, because that’s, um, I can see that definitely in myself and and many others, that getting to know these kind of techniques or methods or inquiries can sort of in one way help you to sort of, at least in the beginning, it was in my case, that it could sort of help you to bypass certain emotions that, oh, because when we started to talk about life’s best moments, you will always be in this kind of open, spacious, loving kind of being. But my experience is that to be a human being is feeling all kind of emotions, the whole vast human experience, and it’s not being free from them, it’s being free to feel them. And it can sort of be easy to understand that, well, an emotion is coming and it’s going, it’s like a weather and that kind of, and you can intellectualize that understanding. That’s right. But you don’t really, you’re not really being with it.

Loch Kelly
That’s right. So, yeah, so beautifully said. Yeah. And I think that’s a lot of the experience and it’s what I talk to a lot because many people do stop at either the first mindful witness or the pure awareness, detached witness, or they have a, a map or a that says the goal is to go beyond all emotion or just to have positive emotion. But in this, you know, continued kind of movement of untying the knots, you untie the knot of the witness and then you’ve moved from being too attached to a small self to being too detached from a mindful witness. But it’s a positive preliminary practice. It’s a positive step to get that mindful view and detached. But then you find finding this awareness based knowing that’s already awake and essentially who you’ve always been that and when you feel that that’s arising as your emotions, your thoughts, pleasant and unpleasant, then there’s this capacity that can’t be hurt by strong emotions, even trauma. I work, you know, I’m as a therapist, I work with people who have, you know, severe complex trauma and this works very well with them because they have this true nature or this true self that can be aware of, you know, in a bigger field of awareness as the grief and the pain arises here and now to their consciousness, which can bear what seems to be unbearable.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, I mean, that’s life changing. Yes, to be, to be able to, to be with all our emotions, with, with the trauma, whatever it might be. So, yeah, that’s, um, yeah, that’s very important.

Loch Kelly
Um, yeah, I think that’s the everyday awakening, that it almost has to go all the way to the kind of the most advanced level rather than stopping part way. And certainly, you know, each person who does meditation, there’s something, there’s benefits to gain all along the way, you know, in each stage, but you can kind of experience the full, the fullness of it in a glimpse. And learn how to do that. And then, you know, you can do these small glimpses many times during the day in the midst of a busy life, in the midst of an everyday householder, you know, family life and come to full awakening, which is being a fully intimate human being and both being, you know, both transcendent and embodied, you know, both being what you know, what is free and vast and infinite and intimate.

Axel Wennhall
We’ve been talking a bit about the ego and or the small self, as you said, and for those who’s listening to this and perhaps might be a bit confused, wait a minute, self, small self, the big self, the open, open, well, sky, what can we sort of help them and point out to sort of in their experience? What is what?

Loch Kelly
Yes, you know, this is one one little map. It’s is to feel that that that constellation of consciousness, which thought going to thought that creates a thinker and that we feel, I think, therefore I am that feeling that is looking out of your eyes, is trying to organize and manage, is actually an ego function that becomes an ego identity. So it’s what develops in a child who is a baby, and then they develop a kind of conceptual thinking, they develop memory and then at about one and a half to three years old, they develop, interestingly, what’s called self-awareness, which is the ability to like see themselves in a mirror and and if you put a little you know mark on their nose, a color, a look in the mirror, at you know six months old, they won’t know that’s them, and at one and a half they’ll say, oh, that I have a mark on my nose. And then we internalize, oh, you shouldn’t do this, or I shouldn’t touch that hot stove, or what, don’t do that. And that kind of secondary self-referencing part of us becomes the manager or the ego. And then there seems to be almost like not just one ego, but there’s a committee of managers. And so that’s that’s kind of what I work with is is called this parts based or sub personality based psychotherapy that many, many psychotherapies recognize there’s not one ego. You know, there’s managers, there’s parts of us, there’s sub personalities. Now, if we can shift out of that into this more awareness based, subtlest dimension of consciousness, you can be aware of all those parts or sub personalities from this what seems to be the not a part and not a sub personality, but almost like a. You know, it’s called awake awareness or true nature or awake consciousness, but it it’s what, um, is this subtle, intelligent, awake consciousness that is inherent even within the parts or sub personalities and yet isn’t caught by one. And then you can, you know, allow and work with different parts of yourself, uh, from there.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, by definition, you’re not who you think you are. And also by definition, sort of you can’t be something you experience. That’s right. So it’s sort of this inquiry into see, okay, well, if this is something I experience, a thought or a, yeah, even this sense of I do, I’m doing this or I’m, I’m meditating. If I, if I can sort of experiences, I can see it. What’s who’s experienced it?

Loch Kelly
That’s right. Yeah. And then, and then you’ll find, though, what will happen is you’ll develop a witness right away. So if you say, well, okay, what am I aware of? Okay, now, who’s experiencing this? You’ll usually most people will get to a mindful witness. Yeah, like, oh, that’s, you know, like, oh, I’m worried about this. What, what should I do tomorrow? Should I do this? Or I could do this. Oh, well, who’s aware of those two parts that are trying to make that decision? Oh, I’m not those two parts. I’m aware of them. But now you’re not actually that yet either. If you can then open up and assume, okay, that’s a meditative witness. So open up to a more spacious until you find an effortless awareness that’s aware of the witnessing part and the part that’s trying to make a decision. Now you’ll see the feeling is the marker is there’s kind of a boundless, timeless, contentless, all pervasive field of awareness that isn’t located in one place and yet is is not just outside. So it’s also kind of the what everything’s made of. And that feeling, you know, isn’t something we’ve learned how to do, but it’s learnable. And when you learn how to do it, people will find it through different doorways or different shifts or letting go and moving of awareness. But, you know, when you do find out how to return there and not get caught halfway, then you don’t have to kind of get rid of the ego or kill the ego or say, oh, I’m not that self or that self is a, you know, is not the true self, that’s the false self. You know, you start to realize, oh, that’s, that’s a part of me that’s exhausted because it’s been trying to be me. It’s like, oh, you poor fellow, you know, you’re like, you know, okay, you can relax. Well, don’t you think I’m I should really get things done right now? You know, well, I understand you really have been, have been feeling like that’s the most important thing. But what if you just take a breath now and and just, you know, when I need you, I will call on you because you’re very helpful, but would you like to just take a break and just rest or play or do something? And then that part will go like, oh, really, you’re not going to fight me, you’re not going to, you know, try to battle me. No, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m, I value you. Okay, so it’s that kind of uh relationship that changes the whole psyche.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, and I think that’s really important to look into as well, because there’s, in some traditions, it’s, it might be the case that sort of, yeah, as you say, kill the ego or the ego is a, it’s an illusion, see-through delusion. Of course, it’s, it’s an illusion in terms of there’s not an object, but but also what I, what, what I seen being really helpful is is what you experience or explored here is that sort of I see that the as the first step is just to allow every part, every sub personality, every ego part to be there. Yeah, it’s, it’s there to be seen and and and it’s okay. But also, as I think you write about it in your book, that it instead of fighting them, because that’s what we do, right, all the time, we’re, we’re in conflict, uh, with ourselves and our different, uh, different personalities, is to sort of see them, just be with them and in one way also to love them and give and give them appreciation.

Loch Kelly
Yeah, that that becomes, when you realize that there’s no bad parts of you. So even when you really look and you really end up saying, even the ones that are mean parts or rageful parts or hating parts, like they’re all trying to be safe or loving, they’re trying to get the same thing. They just are confused or ignorance, which is really what the issue is. So even the, you know, rageful part or the, you know, I hate that person because they didn’t, you know, notice me when you know, like, it’s like, what are, what are you looking for? Hateful part? Well, I just want to be noticed. I just want someone to care about me and like realize that I’m here, okay, well, and then that defense or that protective mechanism of survival which has been taken over by the personality can relax and the part doesn’t have to be, you know, you know, like destroyed or you don’t have to be no self. So there’s some people in the kind of moving through this unfolding of awakening. I’m the small self. Oh, now I’m no self. And then you’re like, okay, would you, what kind of tea would you like? All tea is the same. So you don’t want to get to that neutral, that freedom from the self. I’m no self. I go to the grocery store and things end up in my, in my cart, you know. I was like, oh, really? Okay, well, do they seem to be like all cat food or something? And you don’t have a cat or, you know, do they tend to be like things you tend to like, you know, like, but, but literally I’ve, I’ve, you know, done kind of consultations with people who are stuck in couch potato mode or no self mode, or usually they’ll come and they’ll say, I feel like I’ve had this awakening. It’s so much freedom, but my partner thinks I’m spaced out. What do you think? And I say, I agree with your partner. Yeah, that’s great.

Axel Wennhall
I want to just go back to the sort of like seeing the different parts of us and that sort of they all they just want to be seen because I think one part that it’s perhaps harder to to love and to see and to be with is is the part that it’s sort of our inner critic, the part that can sort of even be self-hating. Sometimes. Yes. How do you sort of how do you guide people to be with their worst own inner enemy?

Loch Kelly
Yeah. Yeah. So we could even transition. I’ll describe it and then we could even do it as kind of a final meditation if you want. But so the sense is that in in some of these systems there’s what are called, you know, parts of us so the inner critic and the manager, even the like smart manager who’s like, just like, I’m just here to try to listen to this podcast to learn about how to be awake and, you know, really, you know, grow so that, you know, normal awake manager, the inner critic, the spiritual ego, they’re all they’re all kind of rotating through the seat of the small self. And they’re all parts and they’re all trying to help. The inner critic is just trying to be like, be careful, don’t cross the road, you know, like it’s just it’s like, you know, if you become distracted for a moment, you could get run over, you know, like, come on, you know, so it’s it’s a very it uses kind of harsh whether you internalize through culture or your family to learn that. It’s a it’s a survival watcher that is trying to be a function of you to help your body and emotional life not get in situations where you could get hurt or killed. Yeah. So just recognizing those directly that they’re really there and they pattern there. It’s not just thoughts, stories, feelings, Sensations, they thoughts and learned experience and bodily. They pattern into these constellations or parts or sub-personalities and that’s often what gets triggered as you walk around during the day. It’s not just a thought or a story like, oh, there’s a judging thought. You know, it’s like, no, it’s a judge. It’s like, you know, what’s wrong with me comes up, not like the thought of what’s wrong with me. So being willing to feel that level of reality of of these parts and then realizing they’re all trying to help, they all there’s no bad parts, they can be appreciated. Now let’s go to the fullest, most awake consciousness that can be with them listen to them, appreciate them, love them and, as they arise, doesn’t have to identify with them or oppose them. So that’s the, that’s the difference, and that takes, that’s what takes a little time, because they’re very quick and they sneak up and they’re about survival. So they’re, you know, they’re strong and eventually, when you’re in- but this is the advantage of of what’s called flow consciousness, because we have reference for people who are doing, you know, who are not only athletes and musicians playing in orchestras, but people in, um, survival mode, in a hospital or in an emergency or in, you know, war time. You go into this, you know, into this survival, uh, but higher level functioning that is able to deal with complex difficult situations from optimal awake consciousness that isn’t dominated by all the voices in the commentating.

Axel Wennhall
Well, it’s such a relief when you can drop back and and yeah, just be with it and rather than identify with with that voice. It’s, uh, that’s, that’s great.

Loch Kelly
And yeah, yeah, so those, you know, those are the kind of you know. So there’s like five main little points, but those two, like that you can drop back, that you don’t get stuck dropping back halfway, that you can find this awake, spacious, pervasive awareness, and then that you realize anything that’s arising is not something to be gotten rid of or opposed, or that it’s normal, like your hand is part of you and the critical part of you is part of you, just like your hand. It’s part of your psyche, your, your digestive system is part of you, your, and that critical part is can be unburdened from its role as the center, or that it’s confused about what’s physically unsafe and what’s emotionally unsafe and what’s need, how harsh it needs to be. So it just kind of relaxes a little bit. It’s still like you better, you better watch out that car, you know, when you, you know, you better watch out when you cross the street, you know, it still may come up like, you know, and it may be like, oh, that person’s yelling at you. You know, like, maybe you just better say, let’s talk later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I don’t think they’re going to be able to survive there. They’re not going to I don’t know if you can talk to them in a way. So take a breath. And and thanks for your help. And now let’s see what should I say? Okay, from awake, open hearted awareness. Okay, can we talk about this later? Okay, so why don’t we, you know, you know, or whatever the in the moment, but there’s nothing wrong with their opinion.

Axel Wennhall
No, and and also sort of we discussed it before that I had one of one of my many sub personalities coming up just a few days ago and I sort of looked at it and I sort of like, hmm, it doesn’t make sense. This kind of voice in my head and I tried to sort of intellectual understand it. Well, it really doesn’t make sense. But then I sort of sat down with it and I felt it and I understood. Okay, well, of course it didn’t make sense because this was not an intellectual kind of sub personality. It was an emotional sub personality who needed to be felt. It’s it was literally like feeling as like a fragment of me as a child. Yes, it’s like, ah, okay, you just needed to be seen, be felt, experienced, and in that it was this kind of trust. Yeah, and it was all okay. Everything was okay.

Loch Kelly
Yes, beautiful, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that’s it. So that willingness, you know, that ability to not deny something or meditate it away, you know, as if, oh, that’s just a thought or a feeling. So, um, oh, that’s one of the, you know, the negative emotions. So we’ll just go to the positive ones or something. It’s like, uh, okay, that’s one way and that’s, you know, transitionally, they talk about, um, in Buddhism, the first, you know, is renunciation. So you just renounce, you join a monastery. It’s like, okay, it’s too tough, let’s get rid, let’s just not have family, sex, uh, money, work, you know, let’s get rid of all those and just renounce them and then try to find. And then the second is transformation. So then you try to transform negative emotions into positive. And then the third is this direct realization that you’re already okay just the way you are and that whatever’s arising is just part of what is. It’s not negative or positive, it’s just what is and you can be curious and aware of it and it will transform and liberate, um, what needs to be, what’s the extra burden of it will, will relax and, uh, but the main thing is that when you’re aware from this openhearted awareness, this Bodhicitta or this true nature, awake consciousness, it’s, it’s a real felt sense of love and, that’s unconditional love. It’s not even compassion, it has no conditions, it just sees everything as it is. It goes, okay, yeah, all right, let me try to understand. And- and that’s not a human quality that you’re trying to develop, like trying to develop loving kindness it it’s discovered when you shift into the awake consciousness, these natural positive qualities arise.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, so it leads me to this kind of feeling that many of us have that sort of of this getting it or losing it. Yeah, so how, how sort of how can we get past the even like, oh, now I have it, now I don’t, now I have it. Yeah, this kind of going forward and back.

Loch Kelly
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, it’s, it’s the key is that it’s, it’s already both and so, so that’s the first that the awakeness you’re seeking is already here. And the second part is, and it includes your confusion, your ignorance, and your feeling that you’re not getting it, that ultimately you are it already and there’s nothing to get. And relative, the relative part is currently predominant or it’s, it’s currently, uh, closing off your consciousness. So there is some unfolding in time that is about shifting to the primacy of what’s already here, and that can include the relative, uh, parts that still doubt and think you’re not getting it or judging or judging, even while in the background you realize, okay, well, it’s all, it’s all just unfolding, it’s all a dance. So that’s the kind of that’s the paradoxical answer, that it isn’t one or the other in some ways, but there is, there is a. So Awakening in some ways is a relative level shift, because ultimately you’re already awake, everyone’s awake, but relatively the relative parts keep closing off or covering over. So we feel like we’re living in a cloud and we stay in the cloud to be safe. And then there is some, uh, the awake Consciousness actually is what can awaken to itself. So the awake Consciousness that’s within the cloud can open into the sky and realize, oh, I’m also the sky, wow, I’m not just the cloud. And then the awake Consciousness realize, oh, and I’m also in the cloud, and the cloud is made of the whole sky and the universe and the elements, so that whether I’m in the cloud or out of the cloud, it’s all a kind of dance or unfolding. So, yeah, so it’s that first initial dualistic feeling that I’m in this contracted state, oh, I’m in this meditation state. But then once you realize, oh, it’s not about a state, it’s, it’s about, you know, tuning in to what is from a certain view. They talk about, you know, what’s your view or where are you aware from is what I often say, where are you aware from? So everything’s included, but where are you aware from? Are you aware from the small self? Are you aware from a mindful witness? Are you aware from big sky witness? Are you aware from this spacious, pervasive, welcoming, inter-being is what Thich Nhat Hanh calls it. I like that.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, and and also sort of perhaps that sometimes the taste of the experience we can sort of, we can sort of like, if we’re feeling we’re getting it, we’re having a rich flavor of the experience, being open, and if we’re losing it, we feel the classical metaphor with open or contraction. Yes, that’s right, but rather like it’s, it’s rather this um way of being and this um, yeah, there, there’s something in in your book that I sort of highlight, that is, I think, was one of your student who said, even though he or she wasn’t feeling good, he, he was feeling good, or something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it’s this background, knowing this kind of freedom, always here in the background.

Loch Kelly
Yeah, some kind of both end. Yeah, I mean, initially there’s some, I know some of the pointers, some of the teachers saying, well, don’t focus on contraction, openness, but ultimately it is a view there are, there’s a felt sense of being both open and parts are contracted when you’re in a way consciousness, because it is a, it has an emptiness and a fullness and an interconnectedness in that view. There’s definitely a feeling of being both and. So, you know, the first stage is either or. I’m either contracted or open. I’m trying to be open. I’m, oh, contracted is bad, but ultimately it’s like, okay, the view is open and and parts are contracted and I’m in the parts and I’m multi dimensionally all around, and that’s the, that’s the un knotted view or or feeling or Consciousness that is unburdened and awake. It, it does have those uh markers. That’s a third thing. So I think that that first one that you know the point is, well, don’t worry about whether you’re contracted or open- is when people are doing the first and they’re still in the view of it’s either or. But when you get to both end, there’s definitely a felt sense that knows it’s awake when, when that which is awake is awake.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, we’re soon going to do another glimpse with you and and meditate with you. Uh, well, before that there’s, there’s one thing that I heard you talk about before that I found very useful for myself, and that’s, uh, I think you said something like, don’t take your spiritual temperature of what’s arising and what you experience, rather than how do you respond or how you react to what’s arising.

Loch Kelly
Yes, yeah, beautiful, yeah. So that’s again like a good pointer past that initial, you know, sense that you’re kind of trying to feel good or you’re feeling suffering, or now you’re feeling, uh, oh, you’re feeling clear or you have less thoughts, and then all of a sudden, you know, strong emotion or something comes up, oh no, I’m out of meditation, or something, yeah, or I’m not awake, you know. So the thing is that, going back to that, that premise that everything’s included, ultimately you’re always awake and relatively there’s an unfolding of awakeness, so that since we’ve been contracted and in a small self and repressed, repressing our emotions, there’s going to be a process of thawing out or detoxing that what it feels like, yeah, so, as you’re more welcoming to all feelings and emotions and your body, you’re going to get these arising of thoughts, feelings, emotions, sub personalities, and you’re not doing that. So you’re not making the the emotion happen, it’s, it’s conditioning, it’s, it’s conditioning from before. Oh no, what, what’s going on? Oh my God, what’s that? What should I do? You know, it’s you, you’re not trying to do that. That’s arising. So the key is, it’s not so much about what’s arising, but who or what is it arising to. So, in fact, in when you get down to the, you know, kind of the stabilizing of awakening or the training to remain or the, there’s a process called self-liberation, where thoughts and feelings and emotions that are even like unconscious level, they liberate upon arising. So as they arise, the awakeness recognizes them so that you’re letting go of these tiny. You know, I talk about these words, clashes and scandas and, um, uh, karmic patterns and you know, but whatever those are, those holdings that we’ve had all our life for, and they start to thaw out. And rather than going back and putting your hands in the snow to relieve the pain, you let the pain thaw out and you let everything, uh, clear through, but in an intimate way that you’re feeling that you’re able to be present with the unpleasant, that that, that skill and that awareness that isn’t in pain can be present within the unpleasant as it’s unpleasant and you can be happy while you’re not happy.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, nothing more to say about it.

Loch Kelly
No, it’s and and and it’s not. You know, it’s the thing is just to kind of say, because it sounds like you know, it’s interesting, it’s a lot, but it’s actually the how is actually fairly simple and then it’s not like all the things I’m saying you have to read them in a book. It’s like they will show themselves to you if you have just some basic structure and then the little how to you find the doorways or the glimpses and the ways to abide and learning to return. Once you feel that you re identified, then you learn to return and train to remain. And then there’s just this natural wisdom and unfolding that shows itself to you, um, from within.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, but it’s always good to be reminded, right?

Loch Kelly
Yeah, yes, yes, it is. I just don’t want, because once it gets like, you know, like, wow, the liberation upon arising and it’s amazing, let me try to do that, you know, it’s like, just, you know, you don’t have to do that, just let’s go simply learn what the feeling of awareness based knowing is rather than thought based knowing, and that it’s not a witness, it’s actually arising as your thoughts, feelings, sensations. So there’s a interconnected, non thought based beingness that can use thought or move your hand without, uh, creating a manager.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, I also love the instruction just to let everything be as it is. Yes, you’re stopping and let everything be as it is, since you’re already awake and aware. Just let everything be as it is. That’s it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right. So before we’re gonna meditate with you, we have, uh, something called five quick questions. Okay, so what? What comes first to mind? Are you ready? Yeah, what external factor helps you feel alive and present?

Loch Kelly
Yeah, so I would say, um, the external factor is, is that I don’t rely on external factors.

Axel Wennhall
That’s the most non-dual answer. Sorry, it just won’t came to me. I even tried to rewrite the question because I, I knew you, I knew otherwise I was just stuck in this trick, but okay, well, I just looked, I looked, I looked, I looked to see what was true. Yeah, yeah, no, the first first coming up, it’s, it’s fine. Okay, well, I’ll try, I’ll try with the next one. It’s easier for me, at least. Okay, if, if you had, if you had to recommend one book about meditation.

Loch Kelly
Yeah, I mean, I would have to, I have to recommend one of my books because I think I’ve only reason being that I think I’ve, I’ve learned from so many books, so many teachers, and I’ve tried to make it simple, contemporary, modern, and practical. So, um, so I would say, yeah, the way of effortless mindfulness.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, well, it’s a great book, that that’s for sure. Uh, what are you grateful for right now?

Loch Kelly
Yeah, I mean, I’m grateful for, for my, yeah, I just am feeling, I’m just feeling into gratefulness and it’s just like, it’s just so gratefulness is so beautiful. Uh, so grateful for being grateful for the just unfolding gifts that are arising from awakening. I’m definitely grateful for my wife and our relationship kind of becoming more loving, uh, as we see each other more fully, especially at this time when, when we’re spending a lot of time together. But, uh, yeah, it, it, it’s, yeah, the feeling of being grateful, yeah, for being, that’s just like, wow, yeah, yeah, it just kind of permeates everything and then kind of goes inside and out and soften, it like softens when you feel grateful, it kind of softens the feeling of your body, your emotions, and even when you look out at the world, everything is friendlier.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, when was the last time you cried?

Loch Kelly
Uh, I think it was last week and it was a, it was crying with gratitude. Oh, wow, it was really like I was just feeling like I was just walking around in the morning and kind of just started kind of tearing up and feeling like this is so it, it, it was also had to do with some sense that a lot of people are suffering, feeling gratitude and then connecting to people in with the Covid and everything that’s going on in the world and just feeling like a tenderhearted gratefulness for human life and realizing the sensitivity and the struggle and the preciousness and the yeah, so, so I tear up, you know, I, I, I tear up fairly regularly. It’s like a tenderhearted, uh, yeah, crying.

Axel Wennhall
When you said it, I got the picture of like this sweet, uh, summer rain.

Loch Kelly
Yeah, yes, yeah, that’s kind of that. Yeah, it’s not a strong grieving, but it’s, it’s that tenderhearted connection to the sensitive, you know, sensitive, like the sensitive child in me and the, but the sensitive, like human beings that are like doing the best they can, you know, with these difficult times.

Axel Wennhall
Last question, what’s the best piece of advice you got?

Loch Kelly
That I got? Somebody gave me? Yeah, yeah, I think it was. You just gave it to me. You said, just be with it as as it is.

Axel Wennhall
Amazing, amazing, okay, so with that, I’m gonna hand over the mic to you, okay, so, uh, if you would be so keen to to guide us through a mindful glimpse or a meditation or whatever we might call it, yeah, so let’s just do, uh, one where we, uh, shift, um, from from head to heart space. Oh, that’s amazing. I, yeah, I was about to request it, but I, I wanted, I wanted you to guide it, but it’s, it’s a favorite.

Loch Kelly
So, uh, so, so the sense is that when we’re living in awake consciousness, uh, we’re not as much focused on the managers in our head, but we’re kind of aware from this open mind, openhearted presence that’s equally in every cell of our body and also kind of dropped into this heart mind or this heart space that you see in many pictures of the sacred heart or, um, eye of the heart or so. It’s not exactly the emotional heart or the physical heart, it’s not even the heart chakra, um, or the kind of dantian, which is more in the belly, but it’s almost touching each of those, but it’s like a doorway or a safe space called heart, mind or heart space. Yeah, so, uh, what we’re going to do is we’re going to feel as if we’re located in our head and find that normal constellation of Consciousness. So you can do this with eyes open or closed and just start by finding a comfortable way of sitting. And then, even after we finish this meditation, you could even, you know, listen to the rest of it later and just sit for as long as you like. So we’ll just do it as a guided practice, but you, you know, you’re welcome to listen to it again and just marinate afterwards and then see if you can transition from the open hearted awareness to stand up and kind of do the next activity that you do. So, starting with this feeling of listening or understanding, where is the hearer or the listener or the one who’s kind of listening to these pointers, and then feel like you can realize that thoughts, feelings and sensations are made of awareness itself, and that even as I’m talking, I’m not just talking to the thinker, I’m talking to your true nature, to your awake Consciousness, which is within and all around, so that as you feel that center of your awareness in your head, just notice that awake awareness has intentionality, so it can identify with thought or it can move from thinking, which in Buddhism is the sixth sense, to open to the space around your head. So just feel as if awareness moves to a place where you can be aware of that place you are listening from and then feel as if this globe of awareness that is where you’re aware from can move from thinking to seeing. So if your eyes are closed, you just may notice some shadow and light just seeing without focusing on what you’re seeing or who’s seeing, just the mingling of awareness and light and vibration. And then feel as if awareness can move itself from seeing unhook from seeing and move to hearing. So just notice that feeling of just hearing directly from within hearing, just vibration and awareness. And then feel as if awareness can drop to be aware of your throat and your neck directly from within your throat and neck. So just check that you’re not stretching the tension down from your head and you don’t need to look back up to thought, to know so that you feel as if the awareness is directly perceiving aliveness, space and awareness directly from within. And then notice that awareness can drop below your neck into your body, your upper body, feeling your body directly from within. So just notice this feeling of true embodiment where this awareness based knowing is feeling. The effervescent aliveness, heat, cold, changing sensation, space and awareness directly from your body. And then let this awareness drop until it finds somewhere in the center of your body, the safe space, this heart space. And just let the awareness go deep within to the subtlest dimension of your consciousness, to the space within the atom. So you’ve dropped and you’re aware of your heart space from your heart space. And as you’re aware of it, notice that at the subtlest dimension, it goes deep down within and opens up to the sides and even feeling the awareness going behind and then letting it go deep down within your mind to notice the awareness that has your back. So letting it go to the subtlest dimension that is feels like a boundless heart. And any information from the office of your head can come down by Wi-Fi to this home in your heart space, in your heart, mind, if needed, but it can be poured back into the field of this boundless heart. So that you’re aware of your heart space, aware of the support of this vast open space and grounded down within your body through your lower body, through your knees, torso into the earth as well. So just feeling you can rest at home in this heart space, letting all of your senses equal rights to all senses, let them all be on. And then feel as if, as you feel back to that awareness that has your back, that you discover an effortless awareness that’s already awake without your help. It’s boundless, timeless and alert. And then as that awareness, it’s spacious. Notice that it’s arising as vibration sensation, like an ocean of awareness that comes and arises as the wave of your body. Without needing to form a manager, let yourself feel as if you’re looking out of the eyes of your heart. As if you’re interconnected to everyone and everything in front of you. Connected to the support behind you. And here. And here you can see that the light is coming through your eyes. With all the emotions and parts welcoming them within your body. So as your senses are open. You can at some point when you feel ready, gently open your eyes and just let your eyes receive light and let the light go down like a periscope into your. Heart space. And then feel as if you’re connected through the eyes of your heart. Rather than looking out. From your physical eyes. So your ears are receiving, your eyes are receiving light. All the information. Dropped and opened. To this field of awake consciousness. Without needing to form a manager within. Notice that you’re here and you could respond. Can move your hand from here. And as you rest in your heart, mind. You could even allow your phone number to arise. In your heart, mine. And then let it go. Without needing to go to thought. But just using. Memory if needed, using thought if needed, and if not resting. As peace of mind. Openhearted. Presence. That’s not just and just curiously, is this a meditation state? Or could this be the essential? Feeling of being. That you could live from. If you could live from here, would you want to? So finding that motivation, heart’s desire from the true heart. To live this awakened life from within. And just noticing where are you aware from? Without going to thought. Just allowing this new feeling of being an awake, embodied, openhearted. Presence. To become familiar. So you can continue from here to marinate or. Just transition now to. Listening and moving and stretching if you

Axel Wennhall
That’s great. Thank you, Locke. Wow.

Loch Kelly
Good.

Axel Wennhall
It’s beautiful. All right. So our conversation is coming to an end, but before we say goodbye, always in our podcast as as kind of a last question, is there any guests that you would recommend to sort of pass on the torch to?

Loch Kelly
Yeah, I mean, the first person that comes to mind is somebody I just have talked to recently who’s a a buddy of mine, Adi Ashanti. So he is somebody who we have similar kind of contemporary approach, although he comes more from the kind of resting method and I come from more the inquiry method, but very similar, embodied, openhearted, contemporary approach.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, that’s a great guest. I’ve been I’ve been practicing with Adya for a year now, so it’s yeah, so that’s definitely on the list. Thank you for that.

Loch Kelly
All right, sure. Yeah, right.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah. Okay. So, Locke, thank you for so much for, yeah, tuning in and connecting and speaking and exploring and instructing and guiding. It’s been, it’s been great.

Loch Kelly
Yes. Thank you, Axel. Really, really a delight to connect with you and feel your presence and your authenticity and genuineness really is a delight.

Axel Wennhall
Okay. Take care.

Loch Kelly
Bye now.

Axel Wennhall
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Swedish podcast, Meditera Mera. We hope you have been inspired by our conversation and by Locke’s meditation. This is a podcast from the Swedish meditation app, Mindfully. And if you like this episode, please share it to your friends so we can inspire even more people to discover meditation and to discover who they truly are. And if there’s something that we will bring with us from our conversation with Locke, is it that mindfulness is always and already here? Sometimes we just need to learn to return. Take care and be well.