This is a transcript from our podcast episode with Mukti about meditation and awakening.

Axel Wennhall
Hi and welcome to the Swedish podcast, Meditera Mera, which in direct translation means meditate more with me, Axel Wennhall, who is the host and the producer, Gustav Nord. This is a podcast made by the Swedish meditation app, mindfully. I’m currently in Stockholm and is just about to dial our next guest on Zoom, which I’m very happy to introduce, the American spiritual teacher, Mukti. Mukti lives in Nevada and has been a teacher at Open Gate Sangha in the lineage of Adyashanti since 2004, and has been a student of her husband Adyashanti since he began teaching in 1996 when they founded Open Gate Sangha together. Currently she is the main teacher at Open Gate Sangha while Adya is on a sabbatical. In addition to her teachings, Mukti offers talks, Q&As, dialogues, silent retreats, private meetings, online broadcasts and courses. Mukti was raised in school in the Catholic tradition and also studied the teachings of Yogananda for over 20 years, two parts that have greatly informed her journey into meditation, introspection and prayer. She holds a Master Degree in Traditional Chinese Medicine, a License in Acupuncture and a Hatha Yoga Teaching Certification. In our conversation we will address the big topic of awakening. What do we really mean talking about awakening? What useful pointers have Mukti realized and how can we use the pointer skillfully? And how can we bridge the gap from realization to live an awakened life?

Mukti
Should I launch QuickTimePlayer?

Axel Wennhall
Yes, let’s do it both and then we can record it, press play at the same time. My producers, Gustav is going to be super happy that we put it on the same time.

Mukti
Very close, I imagine.

Axel Wennhall
Hey Mukti, so good to be here with you.

Mukti
Good to be here with you as well Axel and your audience.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, so we spoke briefly before recording here and as I told you I’ve been a student of you and your husband Adyashanti for a couple of years so it’s really nice getting to speak to you and also to introduce you to our listeners in our podcast. And how are you doing right now?

Mukti
I’m doing well. I’m doing very well. And let’s see, I just absolutely love interviews and especially when we have a back and forth and we just see where it goes.

Axel Wennhall
Perfect, likewise. It’s one of the best job ever and I thought about it before speaking to you so my job was to listen to your meditations and talk so it’s been super nice. It’s a pleasure. But to just give an introduction to the listeners, how did you discover meditation and the whole process of awakening?

Mukti
Well, those are kind of two different answers for me. You know, I discovered meditation through my parents when I was young and they were students of Paramahansa Yogananda’s teachings. Paramahansa Yogananda was a great yogi and sage from India who came to America to share his teachings, especially in California where I live. But he was no longer alive when my parents began to study his teachings, but they shared a lot of them with me and those included techniques of meditation. And so I got exposed to those at a young age. And then even though the very organization that Yogananda founded is called self realization, fellowship and self realization is often used interchangeably with the term awakening. I think as as a young person, I wasn’t necessarily oriented specifically toward awakening, but but rather finding a greater sense of peace and a deeper connection with spirit, which at the time I would often say God or guru. And it wasn’t really until I met Adyashanti and we began dating that I learned a lot more about Zen Buddhism, which was the the tradition that he was deeply practicing. And at that point, and he, he didn’t necessarily talk to me casually about awakening itself. But, you know, he would talk about things that he was, you know, looking into and that I was looking into and we shared about that. And then when he began teaching after we were married, I really got a sense of, of his framework for awakening. And that’s when I became more actively interested in it. And actually more believing in the possibility of awakening for an average person like you or me.

Axel Wennhall
Perhaps that’s a good starting point because I heard you say something wise and that’s there’s a lot of words thrown around in spirituality. Awakening is one. And I heard you say, say that you really took time and reflected upon what the words meant for you. So what’s what is awakening for you?

Mukti
Well, there’s how I use the term awakening and I can see a lot of different perspectives that can be pointed to through the term awakening. And then there’s the perspective shifts that I’ve had personally. And those don’t always match up for, for me. Um, for example, uh, there’s awakenings of many, many kinds and varieties. And one person might have an incredible heart awakening where they’re in love with life and the world and everyone and everything that they see. And they see the incredible beauty of it and the, the aspect of, of those expressions that are so perfect, you know, from the eyes of spirit, you know, these, these beautiful beings and, and creations that we, we have before us. And from that kind of awakening perspective, um, you know, there’s a certain way that a, a person, um, views the world and views themselves and views others. And that could be really different than a person who let’s say has a kind of awakening where the whole notion of a central eye or a central me seems to fall away out of the center of someone’s experience and their perspective shifts more into them, um, sensing that who they are is actually empty of all the qualities that their, their mind had narrated throughout their life. That, that who they are isn’t, um, dependent upon history or, you know, or age or gender or all of those things, but that who they are essentially is, is empty of those qualities until the thinking mind references those qualities and, um, brings that framework for who they are to the foreground. But when that falls out of the foreground and a person sees that What they are essentially is can’t be defined by those things. That’s a huge kind of awakening as well, You know, but it’s completely different than, let’s say, a heart awakening. But in general, awakenings tend to shift people’s perception about their interior life or the outer world, and they tend to map to certain centers in the body, certain centers of perception, like the perception of mind, perception of heart, and perception of, of Hara, or in Taoism, they speak of it as the upper middle and lower dantian. And dantian, you could think of that in English anyway, as a kind of gateway, or a window of perception of how one might perceive spirit or spirit might perceive the world. And there’s other things that could affect it too. Besides, you know, there can be kundalini awakenings, which are different than the three centers and, you know, may influence more of the chakra centers and things like that. So there’s so many kinds of awakenings. And so when I’m talking to someone, I’m listening to what type of awakening they’re speaking of, I’m listening to where they’re speaking from, and I’m also listening to what words and descriptions they’re using to orient me to how they’re using the term awakening.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, what comes to my mind is that it seems that awakening tend to have something to do with our identity as well, in terms of, in terms of, as you mentioned, how we perceive ourselves or how we perceive the world, and that’s something I was also wondering a bit about how you view meditation in all this, because, as you mentioned in the beginning, you said that when you started meditating young, it had perhaps the purpose of finding more peace. But what’s meditation for you now, and what do you seem like meditation? What purpose does it fill?

Mukti
Yeah, well, that I could have answered this very question so differently in any given time of my life. And so I love it when people keep that question open, you know, and really continue to ask it throughout their meditation practice and throughout their life. For me currently, I find that meditation is a, an expression, like, I’m not, it’s hard to find words in a way, because we could say it’s an activity, but it’s also an activity of very little doing. But let’s just use the word activity as opposed to expression. So, um, it’s an activity that I engage in and I tend to like to do it in order to have the energetics in my system come into a greater sense of harmony in that space of meditation or in the stillness of meditation. So any heavier energies in my system or frenetic, like difficult, challenging energies, or, you know, energies that are, that are stirring my mind and my thinking mind and, and any concerns I might have, I tend to like to go into meditation as a real reset and an activity that will harmonize my, my, my mind and my body’s energetics. And then open and reveal a quality of being in which my perceptions are even more clear and my abilities to be present for the moment are more available. And, um, my energetics are more resourced in stillness and quiet and peace and light and joy, such that then I can fill up on those qualities of being and carry them into my day or into, into life. And so the experience that I have in, in meditation is that in that process of harmonizing, there’s not only a process of harmonizing my own mind and body, but also my body, mind is harmonizing with the body and intelligence of life around me. So there’s a kind of falling into the present moment in a deeper state of union. Where for that time in meditation, all need to present myself as a distinct person and a person playing given roles, defined roles gets to be put down such that what comes to the foreground is, is more of a, a union experience with all of life, with the simplicity of the moment. And to be present with that. And as that, really, there’s the experience of my body, mind instrument expressing the moment completely unadorned and simple. And yet it’s a kind of pristine simplicity that’s very nourishing and, um, tends to, to fill my, my person up with these qualities of stillness and peace and light that have been helped me bring that forward.

Axel Wennhall
It, it, it seems that in meditation there, there is one part that, especially in the beginning that we have to go through and you point, you, you, you spoke about the energy and for me it might be more being, have being quite heavy up, up top in the head with different thoughts and, uh, and, uh, being like, just realizing, oh, wait a minute, I’m lost in thought again and again and again, and, and just allowing that to be so it can settling down, be grounded in the body. And then, and then, as you mentioned as well, it’s what I found in very interesting is that instead of trying to get to a meditative state where peace and stillness can be experienced, I’m more of a in, in this phase of exploring what is here right now, what’s, what’s, uh, what’s the nature of this moment actually? What’s, uh, the, the stillness, can it be, um, can it be sensed or, uh, can it be, uh, felt or even kind of, uh, can in in one way, can I be the stillness right now in that sense? So more of a exploration of, of what’s already here instead of trying to get somewhere. And, and that’s been, that’s been a very big shift, I would say, in the meditation.

Mukti
Oh, great.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah. And I think that’s, and I think that’s a shift that many goes through to from, from having meditation as a tool or as a activity to getting somewhere to actually exploring what’s already here.

Mukti
Right, right. I’d love to share something along those lines that really helped the shift that you’re speaking of happen in, in my practice as well. And that’s, um, when I was listening to a guided meditation of Adi Shanti’s, when in his first year teaching, I believe, and I was in the audience and he said, you know, before you go about seeking peace, might you ask, is peace present here already now? And that was like, what? What a great way of, of orienting, you know, to what is, what is here, as you’re saying is what is present. And, um, it really takes a person, at least in my experience, it took me out of my identity as a seeking meditator into this sense of very wakeful, conscious, observing and listening and feeling and, and seeing. And it, it brought forward the expression of what I am as awareness that, that functions through the senses and the body to be able to attune to that piece and to be available to receive it. And I think that that it is a huge shift in meditation practice when, when you begin to meditate as you’re speaking of.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, no, I heard that instruction as well, or that guidance, and it’s, it shifted a lot for me as well. It’s, yeah, it was brilliant in, in, in pointing out, and, and I was also, when you said now, I think one, important part, what I found out in the meditation as well, it’s going from, from being the, the observer to observing.

Mukti
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Axel Wennhall
Yes. There’s also like a, there, there’s a, just a small shift in that in, in terms of instead being that the witness somewhere.

Mukti
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Trying to just see, okay, what, what, what’s happens if I use the language and, and I’m just witnessing. Yes. Point of location might drops away then. Yeah.

Mukti
Like, just to use an example for the audience, um, who may be less familiar with what we’re speaking of, I’ll, I’ll just, uh, use an example that is, seems completely unrelated to meditation, but it may give a sense of, of what we’re speaking of. So if somebody says, you know, let’s say you’re in, in the company of other people and you’re all in, in, in a home, and you’re socializing and chatting, but all of a sudden someone says, shh, everybody be quiet. I think I hear a mouse. You know, I think I hear a mouse on the wall and you know, everybody stops and everything’s completely quiet. And in that pause, everyone’s listening and everyone joins in that listening. And there’s no thought of themselves like, oh, I’m the one who’s supposed to be listening. Or there’s no thought of, you know, am I listening correctly? Or, you know, that kind of thing. I mean, there may be thoughts of like, oh, did I hear the mouse behind or is it in front? But there’s that heightened awareness that’s like leaning into the moment. And there’s in a sense, no room for self-reflection about our own identity or role in that moment, because all of our senses are riveted on listening and sensing for the mouse, you know, in, in the room. So it’s a little bit like that when one falls into this kind of really joining in the activity of, of witnessing or observing or listening. And it’s free of, of one’s role as the witnesser or one’s identity as the meditator or even the experiencer. The whole sense of identity is put to rest in that moment or, or set aside. And the, the activity of presencing, you know, whatever’s occurring in the moment, um, is foreground.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah. And it seems to me also that this is, even though what we speak of right now is kind of, um, realization we can get sitting home meditating. Yeah. It seems to me that this kind of experience in one way people have without ever, never meditating in terms of when they’re doing they, their favorite activities. Yes. When they’re completely engaged in something. Yes. Um, I, I noticed I, I, I became a dad for the first time 10 months ago and I, and I seen it in my friends that when they also became, uh, parents, they have this kind of a bit of a shift of perception. They’re just being in that moment with their newborn and they’re just experiencing, they have no self-reflection and, and usually they tend to say like, I’m just in a open, loving space.

Mukti
Yes.

Axel Wennhall
And it’s quite interesting to see that. Oh yeah, there, there, there are some external factors that can help us see this. But if what I found about meditation, and I don’t know how that reflects how you think about it, but it’s that meditation for me can help me access or, uh, realize or see it really anytime.

Mukti
Yes. Yeah. That’s beautiful. And I think that, um, this also weaves us back to earlier, you know, when you asked me, you know, what, what meditation is about for me now, this is a huge part of it. It’s, um, orienting to a quality of being and being present that really carries throughout our whole day. Or can’t you, you can most certainly. And the, the deeper one really rests into that sense of being the more, um, possible it is to carry throughout the day in a whole manner of situations.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah. So perhaps we can dive a little bit deeper into that, because I’m also very interested in how we can actually bridge the gap from realization into life. Because that seems, seems for me to be the most challenging part. Like I can sit in the sofa and I also experience it with, with a lot of other people, uh, meditating, sit in the sofa, meditating, feeling peaceful, feeling loving, and then coming out into the world and conflicts, other people, and, and still live in an awake life. How do you view that? How we can kind of close the gap? Or bridge the gap from realization to being in the world?

Mukti
Well, I think that, um, this is one of these important junctures of practice and I think that it’s super helpful to be sincere, to be curious, to be courageous, and also to, to be patient. You know, I mean, I think that when, especially when somebody has a very big perspective shift, they may expect this intersection of, of, you know, how we might feel in meditation on, on our couch and our at home and how we interact with others, to all become easeful. And sometimes there is a quality of great ease and flow, especially just after awakening for some period of time. And it can feel almost like a honeymoon phase where there’s a person’s consciousness really, uh, I say dunks, you know, like saturates in a kind of stillness and union with a moment where there’s, there’s greater ease. And they’re relating and maybe certain experiences of conflict just don’t occur so much for them. Or when they occur, there’s, there’s just a real sense of grace, uh, stewarding that conflict into resolution and peace because there’s this kind of atmosphere of presence and care and love and clarity and wisdom that all just kind of manages the situation through. A depth of intelligence that, that arises out of that deep awakening or a person’s deep, deep meditations. However, there can also be an experience for most people, myself included, where the, the brightness of that consciousness after a shift in awakening can, can dim somewhat. And, you know, then the sense of self that was defined previously by one’s history, one’s past experiences, one’s triggers, one’s concerns and, and agendas that can come more foreground again. And it, that part of ourselves is often hooked when it comes to conflicts and, and things like that. And so I think that at that point in myself, anyway, I, I find that just being very curious, um, introspecting, whether on paper or for myself, it’s mostly just in my own willingness to, to see more clearly, you know, whether it’s going for a walk and just caring with me, the interest in seeing more clearly through a conflict of relating, um, I might just kind of hold that intention in my heart and have my mind be more available and then just see what appears to me and comes to me. And I think that that, that might be a hallmark for a lot of people in how they approach conflict in more of a conscious state where they’re less trying to figure it out and use their powers of mental thought to analyze situations and you know how things went to try and resolve them. There’s more space when identity shifts into a more spacious being. And instead of analyzing conflict, there’s a greater tendency to what we might say in modern terms, like hold space for those feelings or those memories of how that conflict happened and to just kind of let, let them breathe and be held in, in our own presence or the light of our attention and our heart’s intention, and just kind of see what be what clarifies and what, what kind of rises to the top and, and shows us, oh, this is where, you know, things started to lose touch with reality or, or words were spoken that were less true or were, um, spoken from a more triggered place. And, and then maybe the felt sense of triggering is held in one’s awareness with the light of one’s attention and one’s care. And then that is seen more clearly, oh, I, I feel triggered in those situations because it reminds me of this past experience I had that sort of set up that patterning of, of being triggered. And, and so then there’s these opportunities to bring these parts of ourselves, these habits of, of, of mind reactivity, of emotional ways of orienting, to bring them into more conscious observing and to open ourselves to new options of, of how to respond. And new ways to, to language, new ways to ask others questions, to clarify before we jump to conclusions, all kinds of things.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, I think one of the things that shifted a kind of, I also see that like a keyword that you use here is curiosity. So, so I notice when, ah, I have an interest where I get caught or where it’s kind of like, oh, what’s, what’s going on here rather than a kind of, oh, no, now life is happening. So if, when that curiosity is there, it’s also a good sign that there are like the observing is present and the wisdom can arise from that place. And, and also what I seen personally, what that was a big shift for me was when I saw that life in one way is the best teacher because it always shows you where presence can’t flow and where you can’t really show up being awake and compassionate and, and that, and I think that’s a really good way to look at it because then, then it also, that also makes the practice into, more into daily life and showing that it’s not about the, the highs you can get. It’s not about the realizations in one way, but can you actually embody them in the more challenging situations? So that’s also been a, in a key for me.

Mukti
Yes. Yes. Me as well.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah.

Mukti
I think that when a person connects in their heart with this intention to be as a clear and expression of an embodying spirit, or to be as conscious as they could be, and to be as present as they can be, even in difficult situations, then once they connect with a true commitment to that in their heart, then it doesn’t feel like any of those conflicts or mistakes. They all feel more like opportunities for presence to shine more, you know, or to develop and strengthen in one’s life. And so, you know, in the thinking mind, there’s often this tendency to just make things black or white. You know, like all conflict is bad or, you know, all illusion is bad and only enlightenment and clarity and peace are good. But the thing is, is that they, they need each other. You know, the conflict needs the peace to find its way to resolution, but also the peace actually can use some chaos or some conflict to strengthen and to, to grow in its capacities to enter into new arenas of life. And, um, just because a person has had deep awakenings or shifts doesn’t mean that they’ve, they know all the territories of life. They haven’t met all the characters and you know all the, the difficult people or the, you know, the advanced people or whoever they are, and we don’t always know how to relate to everyone. We don’t always know how to relate in all situations. So there’s this continual learning. And once someone’s in their heart is like very open to that learning, then conflicts can still be very difficult, but there enters a kind of courage to face them anyway, out of the love of wanting to further truth or, or clear seeing, or, you know, um, more refined action.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah. And also what I seen is conflicts and challenges in life is also good at showing you if you have identified as perhaps a spiritual person.

Mukti
Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Because in one way, speaking of my own experience, it can, I can sometimes feel or sense like a failure in terms of like, oh no, there’s here. And then the oh no comes in again. Oh no, here I am in this conflict again. Yeah. I shouldn’t have been in the conflict. Yeah. And that’s quite interesting because who shouldn’t be in that conflict? That’s just like, yeah, but that’s just like an idea coming up of being a spiritual person, person that’s always have to be nice and peaceful and loving and like.

Mukti
Right.

Axel Wennhall
So it’s also a good, for me, I seen it also a good pointing out or reflecting, self reflecting. Okay, well, is there an identity here? Also in terms of this. Can that come us up? Yeah.

Mukti
Yeah. And, and, and what do you see when you ask that?

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, no, but, um, so the identity arises in terms of, um, of a, of a feeling, but I think the key’s been, ah, to be curious and see that as well and not judging that, oh, Right. Here’s the identity as the, as the meditation teacher or as the spiritual person that can never be angry, that can never have a conflict, that is always going to go around like a, a peaceful person. And so to see it and sometimes get caught in it, but then, ah, here it is again, and then letting it be. Yes, yes. So that’s, that’s, that’s been the process of, of, uh, for at least me seeing that, oh, this was interesting that this kind of spiritual identity comes up. Yeah. With opinions that I, I can’t be in a conflict or I can’t be angry or whatever it might be.

Mukti
I really appreciate what you’re saying. And then that letting it be can take different forms. You know, like, uh, for myself, it could be just allowing myself to have those feelings, to have those reactions, or to look closer at, you know, what, what was important to me when I got angry, what was I trying to champion? You know, what was I trying to change or bring people’s attention to, you know, and, and how am I, I do that most effectively. Was the anger most effective with that person, or could there be, be a different way, you know, to, to bring people’s attention to, to what felt really off to me, you know, and also, uh, letting things be can also just be letting myself be human and make mistakes and not be perfect and, and to, as you say, not, not judge that as wrong, but, but simply to, um, be once again a lover of truth. You know, okay, that that’s simply how, how, how it was and and what have I learned from that and you know how can I proceed going forward. Yeah, and, and you said, yeah, sorry, and that, and that part, and oh, just, as I say, and that part does take courage.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah, and you also mentioned, you said that you, I think you said, use the phrase, um, options to respond. Yes, yeah, and I think that’s the key as well, because for me that’s freedom or that’s, uh, awakening in one sense, the getting options to respond rather than react. It’s such a key in bringing in the presence into life.

Mukti
Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, beautifully put.

Axel Wennhall
So when I listen to you, you spoke about, I’ve heard you speak about several pointers, but there were two that struck with me that I would like to explore with you now. Could you just first describe what a pointer is and how you think we can use them skillfully?

Mukti
Yeah, okay. Well, how I think of a pointer is it’s usually a statement or, um, I mean, it could just be a movement of the hand or, or something, but there’s, there’s a way that someone who is issuing the pointer is encouraging the person they’re speaking to, to look in a different direction, to perceive differently, to have a shift of perception and, as you mentioned earlier, to also possibly have a shift of identity. So pointers are meant, meant to really shift our consciousness, which includes our state or our frame of mind, but it can also shift our fundamental sense of who and what we are or what life is. And so, you know, some pointers are that almost all of us might be more familiar with would be when we’re framing something in a negative light. Could we, could we look at it in a more positive light? You know, the, the classic, can we look at the glass half full instead of half empty, you know? So that’s kind of, that’s a type of pointer that shifts. Uh, like if someone were to say, Hey, can you look at the glass half full? That, that could be a pointer that just shifts our sort of emotional state and our perception and our framework of a situation or a person. And yet there can be more existential pointers and probably one of the most classic of all time would be, who are you really truly, or what are you really truly? And that would probably be the most famous existential pointer.

Axel Wennhall
I really like the rephrasing, what are you instead of who are you? It’s, it’s, yeah, it resonates with me. It kind of brings the inquiry into, yeah, just it’s something shifts in me.

Mukti
Yeah. For me too, for me as well. And I heard first heard that, that nuance of shifting the who to the what from Adya and I’m sure many others have used it before him, but when he, he offered that as a different way to hold a similar inquiry, it really changed things for, for me as well. Cause I think that in myself, I had a habit inside of kind of turning my attention back into a felt sense of, I, that I had been doing my whole life. I’m sad, I’m happy. I don’t like that. I like that. You know, there’s a sense core sense of, I. So when I would ask, who am I? I would assume that I was supposed to inquire into the nature of that I, that I had been speaking about all these years. Whereas, um, you know, when Adya would, let’s say, encourage a question like, what am I? It had less of a personhood to it to, for, for me. And then when he would further say something like, what is the, I am, then I would be like, oh, the, I am the person. You know, I hear about that in the Bible and, and all over. And I know that that isn’t referring to me. So then, you know, when I inquired into what is the, I am, that also shifted me further out of this sense of personhood. And when he would talk about how to hold those inquiries, he would often talk about how to, and I do this too in teaching about how to drop the inquiries deep into our, into one’s depth and ask the question, what is I am? And I could feel how in phrasing it that way, how my consciousness would be dropped into more settled sense of being, because the last word in the question was am, and that was completely different than ending the question with who am I? And that is also beautiful, just completely different. It may drop someone into this sort of mysterious sense of self, you know? And so each existential inquiry could be shaped and held in one’s being in one’s consciousness and in one’s energetics, even to deliver us to a very particular type of state. And that’s how powerful the shaping of a question is.

Axel Wennhall
And I also think it’s so important to stress, as you have had, but you just pointed out again, that the pointing out instructions or the inquiries is not meant or can’t even be answered by the mind. And I think that’s the trick, right? And I think that’s the problem with the question, who am I? Because who are you? That’s the question we might face in life. And, oh, we have a story to it. I’m this person. I grew up here. I live, I do this. I work with this. This is my family, whatever it is. So, yeah, it’s a deeper looking, more experiencing rather than shaping words or stories or whatever. Yes. And sensing in feeling or whatever you might call it.

Mukti
What’s that directly encountering in, in, in really the way we were talking about earlier, where the, the notion of ourself is suspended and we’re engaged in that observing or, or, or, or activity of witnessing, or we could say encountering, you know, encountering that sense of beingness or that sense of mystery.

Axel Wennhall
So one of the inquiries I heard you use or pointing out instruction was the question, what is stillness? How have that question or pointing out instruction kind of helped you discover stillness?

Mukti
Yes. Well, I think first of all, what was very powerful about that question for me is that I was genuinely interested in the question. You know, some people are completely riveted by the question, what am I? And I noticed that as much as I had sat with that inquiry and could feel the value of it, I could just tell it wasn’t really truly capturing my interest in a way that I felt my interest could be captured. And so I really was contemplating for quite a while. What is it that I deeply want to know? And, um, if, if it’s not the question, what am I, what is it? What is it that I deeply want to know? And I was very surprised that what I really wanted to know didn’t feel particularly spiritual, you know, that it was just kind of more on the surface. I just really wanted to know what is rest. Cause I, I had been pushing too hard in life with trying to manage a job and, and getting a master’s degree and an inter doing an internship and getting married and all kinds of things. So I was just, I just felt like that’s what I truly needed was a deeper knowledge of what rest is. That was, would be something that would carry throughout my day. You know, like you and I were talking about how to carry meditation into daily life. I, I felt like I wanted to be more at peace in myself. I wanted to feel more at home in myself and at rest in myself in the midst of activity or in the midst of conflict or in the midst of, uh, life. So I, I for many, many months really contemplated this question, what is rest? And I contemplated in a way where I really invited the direct experience of rest for into the foreground throughout the day. And what I found was that there is a quality of rest that’s in the field of life that even as life is very dynamic and, you know, has all these ebbs and flows and, you know, um, sometimes a greater degree of chaos or a greater degree of settling, I could feel that there was some quality of being that resided within me and maybe to some degree just resided within life or the moment as a whole that was also present amidst the, the activity or amidst the chaos, kind of like when we look at a piece of paper with black on white, you know, you, you sort of need the contrast to know the opposite. And, and something in me could feel that the more I really came to know this quality of, of rest, I could feel it even when it’s opposite was presenting. And that, that was really, um, valuable to me. And then, um, as I experienced greater amount of rest, I think my person was able to open to a more existential question, like what is stillness? Because before that, I just, I kind of wasn’t resourced in enough calm in my system to be able to ask a question like, what is stillness? Because what was asking it, my consciousness was all over the place, you know, in, in this busy life. But when my consciousness became more restful, I could ask that question, what is stillness? And the reason why it really captured me, I believe, I mean, I don’t even think I could limit it to one reason, but, but one aspect of why the question drew me was that I saw like life is movement, you know, life is motion, life is dynamic. It does stillness even exist. Like all these spiritual teachers are talking about it or in the Bible and the Psalms, you know, be still, I know that I am God. And I thought, wow, is, does stillness even exist? Is it even possible? But my intuition told me that it was ever present, just like that sense of rest I could feel within activity. So that, that question is one that I just really dropped into my being in the way that Adya encouraged, uh, his students and, and still can encourage his students to, to drop this inquiry questions below thought, below the thinking mind and into a depth of our person. And it’s very supported when we do that kind of inquiry in sitting meditation, because the system is more like a kind of calm lake of being when we get the hang of meditation. And then an inquiry question like, what is stillness? That kind of question can carry one’s consciousness into a felt sense and a direct encounter with stillness. And there may still be movements of mind or body, but the predominant note in that moment is is stillness. And then even what is moving tends to almost pick up on that presence of stillness and harmonize into that stillness so that movement and stillness are more seamless or more integrated.

Axel Wennhall
What I really take with from your explanation is the sincerity and keeping it as an open question rather than a goal to find like what is stillness. I’ve heard all this teaching like I’m gonna get it or what is stillness. Whatever it might be. I thought it was beautiful when you said, is there stillness here? Because that’s such a good, because it shifts the question to I’m going after it rather than I’m exploring to see if it is here. And also, as you mentioned, I resonate with being able to understand or perceive that the stillness is ever present is so useful because then there’s not only conflict, there’s also some stillness. There might be conflict, but there are also some stillness there. Yes. And that can make such a big difference. Right. It makes all the difference in one sense.

Mukti
Oh, it’s huge. Yeah.

Axel Wennhall
Yeah. So I’m gonna be mindful of our time here together. And in the end of our episodes, we always have a guided meditation. And you’ve been so kind enough to guide a meditation for us. So I’m just gonna hand over the mic to you. Okay. And I’m just gonna enjoy.

Mukti
Okay, that sounds good. Well, I want to thank everyone for tuning in and listening to this podcast. And just want to really encourage you to follow your own interest and what really captures you because each person’s path and unfolding is tailor made for you as an individual. And let’s conclude with a short guided meditation now. I encourage you to just let go of any efforting from the day prior to allow your body’s wisdom to come forward in its knowledge of how to find its way to greater ease and settling. You can ask your body to show you what it is to come to rest while remaining present to the gifts of coming into deeper rest. The gifts of not needing for this time to manage experience, to manage outcomes, to not have to seek or strive, but to simply be. In other words, you can let down efforting and simply let everything be. And allow the activities of thought and any stirring energies of body to come to settle into this simplicity of being. And even any thought of yourself as the meditator or the one who is experiencing being can be invited to soften. So any sense of self at the center of experience need not be asserted during this time, but can soften and also come to rest. and as you go through your day and days ahead, continue to sense this innate wisdom in your being of what it is to be deeply at rest while also engaging your activities of daily living. To engage rest while also engaging activity. And to come to know that stillness expresses as movement and movement finds its home in stillness. And allow yourself in meditation to have plenty of time in quiet to saturate and nourish in that simplicity of being. That greater sense of stopping. And that receptivity to aliveness. Without needing to manage. In meditation and perhaps often not even to manage so much of life. To feel as though you have the front row seat to life and this moment unfolding. And to see more clearly how what is needed is present in each moment. And that the path of walking this moment is continually presenting itself. When we have the eyes to see it and the ears to hear it. And the presence to know it. This is your invitation.

Axel Wennhall
Thank you.

Mukti
You’re welcome. Thank you for having me Axel.

Axel Wennhall
It was really nice meeting you and what a beautiful meditation to end.

Mukti
I’m glad you enjoyed it. I did as well.

Axel Wennhall
Great. Okay so take care and be well and thank you for joining the podcast.

Mukti
You’re welcome. You’re welcome. And you take care as well and everyone listening be well.

Axel Wennhall
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Swedish podcast Meditera Mera with Mukti. We hope you have been inspired by our conversation and by Mukti’s meditation. Meditera Mera is a podcast from the Swedish meditation app Mindfully. And our purpose is to help people live an awakened and meaningful life. And if you enjoyed this episode please share it to your friends so we can inspire even more people to discover meditation and awakening. And if there’s something we will bring with us from the conversation with Mukti, is it the inquiry what is stillness? Thanks for listening. Take care and be well.